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| Chopperone Member Since: 13 Nov 2016 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 396  
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Blimey you have opened a can of worms
Let me state my position; I voted for Brexit even though I owned a property in the south of France at the time. We are all pretty fed up with I now. No one really knows what is happening. We feel that the deal - We pay 39 Billion- still not sure if it is £ or euros - We are being totally stiffed on. Many of the EU leaders are unelected; the Boss man is a  head of the first order & is often seen drunk & doing very bizarre things to ladies ( please ladies; one of you give him a good smack in the nuts).
Our PM has got herself into a position where she has so little strength in numbers she has to fight every day for her position. The opposition; Jeremy Corbyn is a communist but won’t actually say it. He has some very dangerous people around him - google Diane Abbot & watch her Masterclass on maths. The thought of the Labour Party in power is a very scary proposition. Changing our PM won’t solve the problem. Personally l think we are heading for a hard brexit. In the long run things will sort themselves out. We will still want to buy Audi’s ,French wine etc & Johnny Foreigners still want our gear. The rest of it will follow suit. Standby for some different answers but mainly we are really bored with it now. Guy May your life be like toilet paper ; long & useful. |
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23rd Dec 2018 6:06am |
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| integrale Member Since: 29 Oct 2015 Location: Auckland Posts: 77 
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Sorry Pickles, but I think you know you are going to foment divisive opinions with that post.
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23rd Dec 2018 6:08am |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816  
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Pickles, a Merry Christmas to you too.
Here’s something to bring you in the spirit. 
Eric  Click image to enlarge You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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23rd Dec 2018 6:45am |
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| MJN110 Member Since: 18 May 2015 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 380 
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Well said chopperone you took the words right out of my mouth. 2016 Defender Landmark 90
2005 Defender CSW TD5 90XS |
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23rd Dec 2018 6:46am |
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| discomog Member Since: 09 May 2015 Location: Notts/Lincs Border Posts: 2527 
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As Chopperone rightly states the majority of Brits are just bored with the whole subject of Brexit. Theresa May keeps telling us that she is delivering the Brexit that we voted for. No she's not. 52% of us voted to leave and 48% to remain, I don't recall anyone voting for a halfway house and personally I don't want a compromise deal such as Norway +++. I voted to leave but I would rather remain than have a Norway style deal where we contribute billions and don't get to sit around the table with the other 27.
In or out Mrs May, stop fudging. Defender 90XS SW Mini Countryman Cooper S Morgan Plus 8 |
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23rd Dec 2018 8:55am |
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| Pickles Member Since: 26 May 2013 Location: Melbourne Posts: 3785  
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Chaperone, thank you for your detailed reply, I hear what you say, and I think, from what I have read, they are in line with what are my thoughts too.
But people are hanging rubbish upon the P.M......I cannot see why she should share ANY part of the confusion, which is now Brexit, As far as I'm concerned, Corbyn is a , same as someone we have in Aussie by the name of Shorten.
So, why all this criticism of the P.M....why is it her fault? What is the answer? Pickles. Last edited by Pickles on 23rd Dec 2018 9:12am. Edited 1 time in total |
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23rd Dec 2018 9:06am |
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| lozza Member Since: 13 Oct 2016 Location: oxfordshire Posts: 190 |
the majority of people voted out...the majority of politicians of all sides want to remain so we end up with a deal that's brexet in name only
at least TM has not called another "peoples"vote |
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23rd Dec 2018 9:08am |
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| WindyJ Member Since: 18 Oct 2018 Location: France Posts: 190 |
Personally I think people insinuating that others not to bring the subject up because it’s “divisive” are without doubt the ones who seek to divide and are by that insinuation are attempting to brandish those who do as “bad” people. Pure NPC. |
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23rd Dec 2018 12:01pm |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3506 
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What is this ‘Brexit’ you all speak of?
Have I missed something? Best regards and have a happy Christmas Lord Lucan. |
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23rd Dec 2018 12:09pm |
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| davew Member Since: 02 Jan 2012 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 888  
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I watched a film called "Darkest Hour" a month or so ago and, other than being a good film, the one thing it reinforced is that our current "leaders" have no vision and are ineffectual at best. If ever there was a time since the war when we needed a leader of the house of commons who had a strong vision and the conviction to push forward that vision, it is now. There are times in history when we need leadership and now is one of those times.
What we have now is a weak leader who approached the "negotiations" with the EU with the view that we have nothing to negotiate with and have to accept whatever the EU want. As a result the "deal" she's cobbled together is basically a way of keeping us in the EU without having any say. Pretty much the worst of both worlds. It's pretty obvious that the MPs that didn't want to leave the EU have "negotiated" this deal. They spent the whole of the campaign belittling the UK and then walked into the negotiations arse first with their trousers at half mast. Painful though it would be in the short term, the deal on the table is so biassed in favour of the EU that I think we will be better off in the longer term walking away with a "no deal". The Germans and French (essentially the two countries that control the EU) rely on the UK for a large proportion of their export market, more so financially than we rely on them, so a "no deal" would pretty much guarantee that we sit down and negotiate a proper trade deal very quickly. We can use WTO or, more simply, just use a mirror system on tarrifs. German manufacturers (and be under no illusion, Germany controls the EU) don't want to face exclusion or high tarrifs that would result in a massive drop in exports to the UK and really don't want to have to compete on a level playing field. Why is Therese May getting all this grief ? She is still trying to convince people that what is on the table is a good deal, despite the fact that it's blatantly not. She promised a "Brexit" and delivered a poor compromise because, like many who voted to remain, I think she actually believed the doomsday scenarios that were and still are being floated as "fact". We have to pay the EU a "settlement" but strangely the EU doesn't have to pay the UK anything at all in compensation for the contribution we have brought to the EU or the amount of crap legislation that the EU courts have imposed on the UK over the years. If we end up in a "no deal" brexit, which I suspect we will, it has happened due to weak leadership and a lack of conviction from those negotiating. At a time when we needed a negotiating team to play hard ball and hold the EU to account we ended up with a bunch of politicians who seem to have taken the view that the UK should just accept whatever the EU is prepared to offer. Anyone that showed any balls was forced out of the team as quickly as possible. That is why the PM is taking so much flack from both sides, her negotiations have been weak and without conviction and the "deal" she has agreed with the EU is insulting and degrading. They let the EU lead the negotiations (even holding them on EU "territory") and I'm pretty sure the EU is the only organisation that's happy with the deal. Did the EU representatives come to London to "negotiate" ? No, our "representatives" went cap in hand to the EU right from the start, they didn't even suggest that the negotiations would be held anywhere but at the EU HQ and that in itself shows how ineffectual and weak they have been right from the outset. http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/ |
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23rd Dec 2018 12:10pm |
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| WindyJ Member Since: 18 Oct 2018 Location: France Posts: 190 |
Well I was one of the only Welsh people to vote remain. I find it humerous that my fellow remainers go on about how leavers only did it because they were a) racist or b) fooled by what was on the side of a bus c) ignorant or d) a+b+c!
I would advise any remainer not to walk into a Welsh pub and say out loud Wales voted out because of what is written of the side of a bus by a couple of posh tory twits - you are unlikely to walk out again! I don’t know anyone who genuinely “blames” the PM for the current situation per say, they just don’t think she’s the right person for that particular job BUT nobody has been able to name a sensible alternative. Now living and working in France, and seeing the EU from a different perspective, I think there is a good chance I would change my vote if it was held again. Why? Because clearly these people were never our friends and I now know that the UK created more jobs for non-British EU citizens over the last 10years than the rest of the EU put together! Losing that may spur the likes of France to buck their ideas up a bit as well as releave stress on UK public services. I’m not sure the politicians are keen for that, not for any pro-EU reason but because the growth in GDP makes things a lot easier for them. I say good luck to the PM, but I think we’re looking at a crash out and coming around to the idea that’s what is best even though it will impact on me personally in not a good way. |
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23rd Dec 2018 12:10pm |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8581
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Well Pickles this is is a big can of worms. This may well land up being a long winded reply.
Australia is not a simple single country with a single set of rules and a single parliament. Australia is a commonwealth of states with free movement of people and goods between the different states. Now I do not know if the situation has changed but each state used to have different driving licences and MOT type requirements (pink and green slips?). Not sure if the tax laws between the different states were different. So in one respect an Australian 'EU" but on a much simpler basis as basically one language and one currency and one military service. Now the EU has its roots in the EEC and Common Market. Started off with 5 countries (?) and a free trade policy. It has evolving into a much larger community and more of a political union then a simple free trade community. Included in this apart from the free movement of goods was the free movement of people. I can remember getting visas for travel in Europe, registering with the police, changing currency at the various borders and sometimes buying motor insurance at various borders. All that has disappeared with the EU Fast forward a few years and David Cameron decided to have a referendum to quieten critics within the tory party and lost the referendum by less then 2% of the vote. Lies and misinformation was given out by both sides. The referendum was a simple in or out of the EU without any mention of the single custom union, Northern Ireland border or another 50+ treaties. DC then disappeared at a fast rate of knots and Theresa May was then given the poisoned chalice. TM then made the bad decision to hold a general election and lost the Tory majority. Article 50 was then invoked which was then the start of the UK leaving the EU within 2 years and the revoking of 50+ treaties between the UK and the EU. These 50+ treaties have to be renegotiated including the free trade policy etc. Now we have people on both sides getting very entrenched views from leave at any cost, we don't owe the EU a penny, tear up the common rulebook, to those who want to integrate more closely with the EU. What happens if the UK leaves the EU without a deal which means WTO rules apply? Well WTO tariffs apply and 50+ treaties are out of the window. What does WTO rules mean? Tariffs on food vary but go up to about 30% depending on the food. The UK imports about 40% of its food from the EU and depending on who's figures you want to believe the UK food prices will go up about 5-10% Motors and parts the tariffs are typically 2-10%. Other goods vary. How are HMRC/Borderforce etc going to cope from day 1. We import/export goods from within the EU and outside the EU. From within the EU frictionless trade and we get goods within 2-4 days from the EU. From outside the EU it can take up to 3 weeks to clear UK customs. Now one of the treaties is about type approval/standards between EU countries. An item approved in one EU country is acceptable in all EU countries. Once the UK leaves the EU then all new items which are approved in the UK are no longer acceptable in the EU. This could have serious effects on UK industry. Another treaty is about mutual acceptance of professional qualifications. So once the UK leaves the EU professional qualifications achieved after the leave date are not acceptable. That means newly qualified nurses and doctors from the EUwill not be able to work in the UK NHS. EU nationals make up about 5-10% of the NHS staff. GBP v Euro exchange rate? From about 1998 to about 2008 the GBP traded at about 1.4 to 1.6 euros. Come the worldwide 2008 crash and GBP was trading at about 1.10 euro. It took about 8 years to climb back to 1.4 prior to referendum. Since the referendum in 2-3 years it has crashed to about 1.1 euros again. Migrant workers? The UK has about 80,000 seasonal migrant workers from the EU which is going to be replaced with a visa quota of 2,500. YES I believe the EU needs reforming. There are certain people wanting a United States of Europe. Lets face it what defines a single country? In the case of the EU, its own parliament (tick), its own currency (tick) its own military (well certain elements within the EU is working on it!) No one on either side of the Leave/remain argument actually knows what will happen if the UK crashes out of the EU without a deal. Sorry long winded post. My opinion? A gigantic f cluster as the Yanks would say. Brendan |
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23rd Dec 2018 12:22pm |
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| boode Member Since: 11 Apr 2012 Location: Devon Posts: 430 
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Most people are so fed up with Brexit that they have convinced themselves that a hard Brexit is the best solution, although most accept that it will be hard in the short term.
World trade tariffs will hurt all manufacturing that buys or sells to Europe - the vast majority of our trade - so that will impact jobs / wages - eventually it will be sorted but how much damage to our economy ? When we joined the EU our trade with NZ almost stopped - they eventually found new markets closer to home (unlike the UK that will have to fine them much further from the UK) and the NZ economy took 10 years to recover - so not short term. We export 40% of our sheep to the EEC - that will stop if tariffs are imposed - that would decimate the UK sheep industry - can't stock pile lambs and wait for mew markets to be found - so not a short term problem. Our PM gets blamed for not being strong and standing up to the EEC, but it was always going to be impossible when 1 tries to negotiate against 27 others - all with a vested interest to be hard as a deterrent against others opting to leave the EEC. Its an impossible situation to sort out and everyone apart from the Tory Elite will be worst off |
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23rd Dec 2018 12:37pm |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8581
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Boode, I do not believe that most people do not actually under understand what a hard brexit means in real terms. I certainly do not understand its full actual implications.
Sheep farming? Well next years 'crop' of lambs has already been implanted. The sheep farmers have had to take a risk, plan for next years lamps and hope there is a market for them or cut back on number of lamps and lose out if the market continues. Not an easy choice. Some people especially vegans would argue that the sheep farmers should diverse into other crops/businesses. Now most sheep farming is done on less arable productive lands, i.e the higher land, moorland etc. I can not see the sheep farmers on the moorlands of Ingleborough/Penyghent etc being able to grow potatoes etc on peat moorlands. Diverse into other businesses? Some farmers might be able to but there is a limit on the number of B & B's in an area and many of these farms are quite a distance from main transport links/cities etc so any diverse businesses will have increased transport costs. So sheep farming industry will be in difficulties. What about beef farming? As for areas such as fruit farming will be in difficulties without seasonal migrant labour. Trouble is no one really knows the full effects of a brexit with no deal. Personally I believe it will take several years to sort out this situation and renegotiate all the different treaties which will be void on the UK leaving the EU. Anyway a lot longer then the 100 days remaining. As far as I see it three options 1) TM gets her deal through parliament 2) TM does not get her deal through parliament and a hard brexit happens 3) TM withdraws the letter invoking article 50 The chances of a general election and a renegotiation in time is slim to nothing and a second referendum is similar due to time scale. Lets face it parliament will do nothing before mid January so that will leave about 10 weeks to 29th March 2019. The clock is ticking! Brendan |
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23rd Dec 2018 1:58pm |
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