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Naks

Member Since: 27 Jan 2009
Location: Stellenbosch, ZA
Posts: 2638

2010 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Alpine White

yep, just the rear --
2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear
2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged

Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9
Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO
Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ

5th Sep 2018 12:30pm

redline

Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Mountains and Lakes
Posts: 221

What Blackwolf said.

blackwolf wrote:

You will always get a certain amount of vibration from a TDCi from the front driveline due to the inclination of the engine and gearbox assembly, which was raised at the front on the TDCi to allow the sump to clear (or on the early models, almost to clear) the front axle and propshaft. The result of this is that the two flanges of the front propshaft are not aligned on parallel vertical planes, and hence it is impossible with a simple Hooke joint at each end of the shaft to get the shaft to run smoothly.

Its quite simply a matter of fact that the stock setup WILL cause vibrations, whether they are perceptible to you or not. Lifting the vehicle WILL just make it worse, and also bring the rear drive shaft into play, as the flanges on that will now no longer be parallel. The physics behind this, I'm afraid, are not debatable.

Also note that the greater the mileage, the greater the "wear" in the entire system, and the harder it is to diagnose the source of the problem. My steering wobble at speed was actually caused by the vibration of the front shaft at a certain speed, which would act as an "exciter" to the rest of the system - the wear in the bushes and joints amplified this, and I ended up with a scary steering wobble.

Its unlikely that the root cause of your vibration is the diff. Its actually difficult for the internals to be manufactured out of balance. If that was the case, you would likely have other symptoms - such as self destructed diff. Most likely the change in the system (tolerances, damping, etc...) exacerbated the vibration, making it more noticeable.

6th Sep 2018 9:06am

Naks

Member Since: 27 Jan 2009
Location: Stellenbosch, ZA
Posts: 2638

Weird, as in 8 years there have never been any vibrations, which is why I am so sensitive in detecting them.

Would putting a double-cardan propshaft in the rear solve this? --
2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear
2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged

Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9
Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO
Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ

6th Sep 2018 9:58am

excossack

Member Since: 22 Feb 2012
Location: North West
Posts: 5842

1999 Defender 110 Td5 SW Caledonian Blue

If you get the Defender in the air i.e wheels off the ground can you recreate the issue? - maybe you might hear some odd noises?
Could it be tyres off balance or slightly damaged? 1999 Defender TD5 110

Regards
John M0VAZ
Econet Station 48 no clock

6th Sep 2018 10:03am

Naks

Member Since: 27 Jan 2009
Location: Stellenbosch, ZA
Posts: 2638

^ I'm thinking of going to spend some time at my indie's workshop to do this.

I just replaced the tyres, brand new Goodyear Wrangler Adventures --
2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear
2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged

Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9
Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO
Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ

6th Sep 2018 10:05am

excossack

Member Since: 22 Feb 2012
Location: North West
Posts: 5842

and the vibrations still present with new tyres. Maybe move the wheels front/rear? 1999 Defender TD5 110

Regards
John M0VAZ
Econet Station 48 no clock

6th Sep 2018 10:32am

redline

Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Mountains and Lakes
Posts: 221

Quote:
Weird, as in 8 years there have never been any vibrations, which is why I am so sensitive in detecting them.

As the wear increases, so too will the effect of the vibration, although the source remains the same.

Quote:
Would putting a double-cardan propshaft in the rear solve this?

The best way to establish this (without actually trying it) is to check the geometry of the flanges and shaft with the vehicle at normal operating weight. Its the front that is the bigger problem, because its much shorter (so angles are greater) and the flanges are not parallel to begin with. I replaced my front with a DC propshaft, and my problems all but disappeared. I still have a slight vibration (the vehicle has a +40mm lift so rear flanges are not parallel) but I can live with it.

Quote:
If you get the Defender in the air i.e wheels off the ground can you recreate the issue? - maybe you might hear some odd noises?

You mean running through the gears with the vehicle off the ground?

Bear in mind that with the suspension at full extension the driveshaft will probably be beyond the normal operating rage of the UJ's, so you will definitely experience vibration! Assuming you don't bind the joints...

Quote:
Could it be tyres off balance or slightly damaged?

Anything that rotates could be the cause. The faster the rotation and the heavier the object, the more noticeable the vibration. That said a wheel out of balance should be quite easy to identify at the local tyre shop, and hopefully the first thing that was checked??!!

6th Sep 2018 11:38am

MK

Member Since: 28 Aug 2008
Location: Santiago
Posts: 2413

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Chawton White

Worth to consider

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Maybe post a video to have a feel what you are experiencing Puma 110" SW

.............................................................
Earth first. Other planets later

6th Sep 2018 5:15pm

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 8010

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey

t box mounts? Cheers

James
110 2012 XS Utility
130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper
90 2010 Hardtop
90 M57 1988 Hardtop

6th Sep 2018 8:53pm

HardCharger

Member Since: 03 Mar 2013
Location: Manila
Posts: 732

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey

MK wrote:
Worth to consider

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Maybe post a video to have a feel what you are experiencing

But isn't the engine and gearbox at an angle with the Pumas? If not the engine and the gearbox, at the very least the gearbox rearwards are at an angle. The diagrams presume that the gearbox and engine are parallel to the deck. Maybe a factor to consider as well?

7th Sep 2018 2:10am

Naks

Member Since: 27 Jan 2009
Location: Stellenbosch, ZA
Posts: 2638

Just an update on this: fitted a double-cardan prop to the front, and this has alleviated the vibrations at high speeds.

The vibrations at low speeds (50-70) are still present. The car was in the workshop this past week where the entire drivetrain was inspected: wheel bearings checked, props, UJs, driveshafts, etc.

We are now going to fit caster-correcting bushes on the radius arms due to a pull to the left, and we will see if that will also help with the vibrations. --
2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear
2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged

Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9
Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO
Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ

23rd Oct 2018 8:06am

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 8010

if your going caster corrected you would be better off clocking the swivels and retaining the strong std arms. caster correction with improve return to centre not sure it will make any odds to the vibrations though. Cheers

James
110 2012 XS Utility
130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper
90 2010 Hardtop
90 M57 1988 Hardtop

23rd Oct 2018 7:28pm

Naks

Member Since: 27 Jan 2009
Location: Stellenbosch, ZA
Posts: 2638

So the Ironman bushes are in, and the cross caster has gone from -0.53 to -0.32 desgress.

Massive difference in the left pull, and a slight improvement in the vibrations.

Taking the landy to a different mechanic next week --
2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear
2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged

Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9
Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO
Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ

1st Nov 2018 5:10pm

MK

Member Since: 28 Aug 2008
Location: Santiago
Posts: 2413

Are both propshafts balanced? Puma 110" SW

.............................................................
Earth first. Other planets later

1st Nov 2018 9:16pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20300

Is the pinion bolt correctly torqued correctly and not loose?
This is an area I'd be looking, I had a vibration thing around the rear diff in the past and it didn't sound good but would come and go.
It then marginally disappeared and was not, propshaft related, diff or DM's.

I did however have a leaking pinion oil seal many times, many times there has been no reason for this either..

Once this was sorted out, which also included replacing the pinion flange, fixings and seals the issues were gone.
I have not had it since either, even despite another leak last year that was fixed this year.

The pinion flange is a Genuine one as is the seal, the original I think was factory too as far as I am aware.
In between fixes and garages I went when the vibration was present I am not sure.
(There is a possibility in between a non genuine flange was fitted. )

However, it maybe that the pinion was worn and not 'true' and also many aftermarket pinion flanges are of very poor manufacturing tolerance levels.
This affects balance in a similar way as the prop shafts do, the pinion bolts can also work loose as well.
Sometimes both are combined but wear is more common than the pinion bolt becoming loose.

This can cause vibration.

The only way to identify it would be to remove the rear prop shaft completely, then the rear halfshafts. (Or 1 piece DM's)
This would allow the flange to remain static with no drive through it, if the vibration is gone you've found the culprit.
Or at least the pinion or diff.

I found removing a prop shaft to determine the axle with the issue was very helpful and you can use this as a method of elimination.

Just bear in mind different handling characteristics, go easy and the diff must be locked.
The handbrake will work regardless of which prop is removed front OR rear, don't remove the handbrake drum.
You may also need a few washers to pack behind the nuts on the transfer box side as the bolts are not fully threaded.
Off the top of my head IIRC they were 5/16" washers, you only need around 4x washers on each bolt.

If anyone wants to correct me on any of my points please feel free, I did find these methods useful myself though to identify issues. ⭐️⭐️God Bless the USA 🇬🇧🇺🇸 ⭐️⭐️

1st Nov 2018 11:49pm

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