 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Smoke on startup |
 
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| LR90XS2011 Member Since: 05 Apr 2011 Location: bickenhill Posts: 3641   
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excellent advice and makes good sense thanks DEFENDER 90 TDCI XS,
I hope everyone is well and your land rovers make you happy |
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27th May 2018 5:31am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804  
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Thanks ZSD.
One of many posts on the subject. Makes me wonder if at a certain mileage/age, due to standard wear and tear and aging of plastics, wires etc, whether it would be a sensible long-term maintenance policy to replace all the bits and bobs you mentioned (glow plugs, vcv, seals, temp gauges, MAF) in one go in preparation for the next 50km of your Defs life? I’ve just hit 60k and have similar problems, so might do a job-lot upgrade. So thanks for the temp gauge heads up, I can add it to the list. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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27th May 2018 7:43am |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720 
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I expect the temperature sensor is just a normal thermistor inside the casing. Over time I think thermistors can break down, not enough to throw up a fault code, but enough to throw out inconsistent readings at different temperatures.
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27th May 2018 2:06pm |
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| o4dn Member Since: 08 Jan 2010 Location: South West Posts: 538 
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If you have a Scanguage fitted, you can read and display the CHT values:
http://www.defender2.net/forum/post151519.html#151519 I reckon if the CHT sensor is shot, the readings will be off with regard to the ambient air intake and coolant temps at startup. Obviously, as soon as the engine warms up, the values will differ a lot more, but at least on a start from cold, the 3 temperatures should be close enough. “A Land Rover immobilized is a moral defeat for the driver and bad publicity for the vehicle, […] it's up to you to do justice to your Land Rover!” - Land Rover Driving Technique. -- 2009 2.4 Puma Defender 90 SW 1979 Land Rover Series 3 88" |
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28th May 2018 8:16am |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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Doesn't the Cylinder head temperature sender also provide the coolant temperature to the ECU? I can't find another sender for coolant.
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28th May 2018 9:36am |
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| o4dn Member Since: 08 Jan 2010 Location: South West Posts: 538
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Yes, it's the same sensor which sends both values. “A Land Rover immobilized is a moral defeat for the driver and bad publicity for the vehicle, […] it's up to you to do justice to your Land Rover!” - Land Rover Driving Technique.
-- 2009 2.4 Puma Defender 90 SW 1979 Land Rover Series 3 88" |
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28th May 2018 9:50am |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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So if the sensor is playing up you'd get both erroneous readings for Coolant temp and Cylinder head temp. So at least 2 of the 3 temperatures will always be the same.
Mine's definitely starting better since the new sensor. |
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28th May 2018 10:45am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804
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Here’s an on-topic, off-model follow up.
Was using our spare car today, Mrs Grendier’s old first-gen BMW Mini Cooper. Wow I forgot how good it’s handling is, still one of the best I think. Anyway, noticed that it was difficult to turn over, then idled erratically. Once on the road, a short hop to the shops, all was fine bar the engine needing more revs. Once up to Full heat I then noticed that the fan was on full blast throughout the journey, 5kms/10mins, yet the engine temp was at optimum. I came to a roadwork traffic light and stopped for the temp gauge to shoot up to max and start flashing. Within 30 secs. Once we started moving again, cool air over the engine, and it was back down to optimum. On arriving at the supermarket, as I slowed and parked it went to max again and on shutting off the engine the fan continued at full effort for some minutes. On getting back (same journey profile and problems) I looked under the bonnet and noticed the coolant reservoir was empty. Topped it up, let the engine cool and went on the same run only to get the same results. Is this the dodgy intercooler, faulty engine temp sensor, bust hoses, all of the above? Seems very similar to some of the examples above. Thanks in advance Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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31st May 2018 6:12pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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Just sounds like your car went into restricted performance as it couldn't detect the temperature. Fairly standard practice on most engines I think. Transits do it if (when) they spit their coolant everywhere.
My concern would be where the coolant went, did it leak out, did it get blown out of the cap or did the engine consume it? Rover did a lot of work on making the 'new' mini handle well, it had a hard act to follow. Despite being a BMW product it was actually designed by Rover, it was basically done by the time BMW sold Rover Group in late 2000, the germans just did a bit of finishing off. The 5 speed gearboxes were even made by Rover at Longbridge - they're the same Peugeot derived box as the Metro/Rover 100. Quite a hard ride in them though, especially the S with the upgrade suspension and run flats. |
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31st May 2018 6:37pm |
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| NickMc Member Since: 01 Oct 2014 Location: Norn Iron Posts: 1624  
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I’m going to say don’t always trust scan data, that’s something you learn over the years.
New style MINI can be very unreliable and have a lot of common faults. Know a lot of mechanics curse them  Overheating and new engines being fitted is very common, think the 1.6 especially?! |
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31st May 2018 11:05pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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Even on quite modern cars, Scan data can send you on a wild goose chase. Or you can get no faults recorded but there is an obvious fault.
The older the car the worse the on board diagnostics can be. I mean bear in mind the oldest of the BMW minis are now 17 years old, so the engine is controlled by what is basically a computer from at least the year 2000. To give you and idea of how old that is, the PC's used to design it would have been running Windows Vista or Windows 2000, possibly even NT4! Computers in cars have come on a long way since then. As an example, On my Rover mini (running an ECU designed at least 22 years ago), it was running rich and kept throwing up fault codes for a manifold pressure sensor and air temperature sensor fault - new ones didn't make any difference. Turns out the non-genuine Lambda sensor was at fault - Thankfully a 1.8 Freelander 1 uses the same sensor (Even the same part number), as soon as that was fitted problem solved. A quick bit of googling, suggests the Tritec engined R50/51/52/53 minis suffer from air locks, there are various bleed screws to get the air out of the system, but even that doesn't work sometimes. The rad caps are also a problem, they don't seal properly and make the coolant boil over. They're the old Rover cap, the same as the TD5/Puma Defender uses, which do go faulty. You could swap the cap with your Defender and see if the fault goes with it. |
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31st May 2018 11:41pm |
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971 
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My coolant temperatures do exactly what I'd expect them to (match the outside temperatures when I start then gradually climb to 85-90C) yet my glowplug light always takes ages to go out when I start. Whether the engine is reading -10 or +90 it's the same (or at least long enough that it still feels like the same).
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1st Jun 2018 8:20am |
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| NickMc Member Since: 01 Oct 2014 Location: Norn Iron Posts: 1624
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Sure just clear the codes and it’ll be fine  experience and the correct info and specs are really the key. Even different Diagnostics tools will give you different readings or info from the same car. It does not surprise me at all when I get a sensor that doesn’t work or have the right specs out of the box. I don’t think you can do the newer vehicles and sensors without a picoscope and how fast it can capture the glitches in sensors- you’ve got to know how to use one Orr f all though. If you can’t read a wiring diagram and understand it working on cars now, you have no hope. The world and technology is moving on and unfortunately the mechanics aren’t. The customer also doesn’t seem to understand how much it costs the “mechanic” to access the info and resources. It’s one thing that gets to me “how much?” “But you just plugged the computer in!” They don’t even see the investment in time, learning and tools. Eg autologic, yearly subscription, topixs subscription, autodata subscription, picoscope, training- got to be 25k before you’ve made a penny on the service and then you have to constantly pay this every year! |
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1st Jun 2018 4:11pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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I think many mechanics forget a code reader is just a tool. It doesn't necessarily tell you what the fault is any more than a compression tester alone tells you whether a poorly engine needs a new head gasket, rings or has a holed piston.
Just blindly following what ever faults it throws up can send one down completely the wrong path, you definitely need an understanding of how the whole thing works and the basic principles of how an engine works are essential. |
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1st Jun 2018 6:12pm |
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