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Home > Technical > Defender 2006 TD5 Throttle Peddle Problem ......

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Mc071963 Member Since: 06 Jan 2018 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 48

Defender 2006 TD5 Throttle Peddle Problem ...... Hello, Hopefully one of you can help me out. I have 55 plate TD5 90 defender which is jolly nice but I’ve got an issue with the throttle and the ecu (not un-common) On 10 occasions in perhaps 3 months as I come to a halt the engine ecu light comes and the engine continues running but the throttle has no effect, the engines not in a limp mode it’s literally at tick over. 9 out of 10 times if I turn the ignition off and then on again the problem clears and 1 out of 10 times I need to leave the ignition off for 30 seconds to clear the fault. If I hang my Hawkeye on the Defender the item of interest is ‘Fault 3141 Driver Demand has been faulty’, I can reset the fault and then next time it occurs the 3141 message pops back up again. If I hang the Hawkeye on the working Defender and put it into live mode I get the following readings With my foot off the peddle 17 – Driver Demand 1 = 0.60v 18 – Driver Demand 2 = 4.47v 19 – Driver Demand sup = 0.00v With my foot flat to the floor 17 – Driver Demand 1 = 4.69v 18 – Driver Demand 2 = 0.45v 19 – Driver Demand sup = 10.00v If I then drive around until I get the issue and then do the same tests again the one that’s changed is that the ‘19 – Driver Demand sup’ is on 0v all the time regardless of throttle peddle position but Demand 1 & 2 give the expected readings, turn the ignition on and off and the values come back to normal. My vin number is 5Axxxxxx and since it’s a 2006/7 Defender I believe I have a 3 track throttle peddle which is wired to the ecu as in the attached image. So my thinking is that I’ve got a duff cable between the ecu and the throttle or a duff throttle or a duff ecu or rubbish in the connectors at the throttle of the ecu end of the loom My problem at the moment is I don’t understand just how the throttle peddle generates these numbers. Is the ‘Demand sup’ a calculated number inside the ecu or is it connected with the 3rd track on the throttle, if this were the case I can hang a multimeter on the correct wire (if I know how it worked) on the throttle peddle connector and work out if it’s the peddle, the ecu or the wiring. Can anybody help me understand just how the 7 connection’s in the throttle peddle are used by the ecu to generate these three numbers ? This post http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic51930....5+throttle looks like a very similar problem and has some very relevant comments from achuakh about how the peddle works including ones about flat spots which would tie in with this happening as I pull to a halt. Only problem is I don’t have a Nanocom and I haven’t figured out how to test the peddle in that way. My suspicion is that the Driver Demand sup signal is on pin ‘C’ in the wiring diagram from other sources but I’m not quite sure. and I’m also up for any suggestions regarding experiences of this nature ! Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings and hopefully somebody has something to say about them Cheers Martin TD5 90 in Hertfordshire

6th Jan 2018 2:43pm

ibexman Member Since: 13 Dec 2008 Location: Essex Posts: 2945	I have a nanocom I’m in cm15 you’re welcome to use it
6th Jan 2018 2:54pm

Mc071963 Member Since: 06 Jan 2018 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 48	Hi ibexman, thats very good of you to offer, I'll bear that in mind, as I say in my post I've got a Hawkeye and we are geographically next to each other so any time I can return the offer please ask. I'll wait a bit and see what anybody else has to think about the issue - I recon I'm dead close but I'd like the views of others !!!  TD5 90 in Hertfordshire
6th Jan 2018 2:59pm

fergyreid Member Since: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Gloucestershire Posts: 10

Martin, First post for me on here but i've been knocking around landrovers a fair while unfortunately... Your issue struck me as i too have a 2006 td5 90 that recently threw the same symptoms as yours.(Apologies for long reply...) It threw the management light and no throttle a couple of years ago after loosing power. I have a laptop (not nanocom or hawkeye) which stated "turbo overboost" so i cleaned the MAP, checked the MAF etc, cleared the fault codes and it seemingly solved itself. Great. Until about 2 weeks ago when we'd seen alot of rain. I drove threw a couple of feet of water enthusiastically with no problems, parked up and the next time i jumped in the 90 it kangarooed around the yard and then threw the management light with no throttle response. My laptop gave the same fault (which i suspect is not an overboost issue but due to it being a generic OBD reader this matches their fault code system. I am currently looking at a nanocom to help diagnose properly.) Anyway, so i again cleaned sensors etc but this time no luck. Looking harder (and now a couple years wiser) i suspected the throttle position sensor. I live checked the data and got similar results to you. The main issue being 0v from driver supply across pedal travel. Fortunately my dad has a 2005 110 td5 so i pinched his TPS to see if this was the issue... Which it wasn't as the same fault shown on both TPS's. Having done some reading there seems to be a common issue of wiring rubbing between the ECM and TPS. I lay under my 90 and could some wires had jumped out the conduit. Gave these a wiggle and put them back in and tried the landy. No light and throttle back. Hooray! Moved a bit further and it threw the light again and back to square one... Unfortunately i am away for the week so now can't touch but think i'm onto the issue having read more last night. I think the water most likely shorted something and this is now causing havoc. The fault has worsened over the past couple of years steadily as i don't drive the 90 much (2-3K/year) and its now become more of a permanent fault than an intermittent. Next weekend i will therefore be checking the wires between the ECM and TPS as a starting point. I've read some horror stories about cables rubbing in that run between the 2 and also a guy that states the TPS cables were damaged at factory by a rogue dash screw (so it would appear the dash is going to come apart too...) Simple multimeter job looking for some rogue resistance or lack of continuity. Secondly, i'm going to check the earth to ECU as stated on the other post you mentioned. I'm hoping its going to be a rogue wire and then i'll be rewiring the TPS. I can't quite get my head around the driver demand supply although it seems like its sum of the potential differences across both potentiometer tracks (i have read its used as a 3rd opinion by the ECM to increase throttle smoothness.) I would agree with your suspicions about "Pin C" and if anyone else can confirm this that would be great? Might be worth lying underneath yours and giving the loom a wiggle? Have you been splashing around recently too? Would be interesting to hear if you have had any progress. Cheers, Fergus

8th Jan 2018 1:00pm

Mc071963 Member Since: 06 Jan 2018 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 48

Hi Fergus, Real useful, I’ve also run into people with wires between the pedal and the ECU giving grief so that’s also a place I’m investigating. Also on my list is to relocate the ecu from under the seat which I might put on extension cables and get it right out of the way. I’ve also been thinking about using a cable based land rover throttle pedal and then remoting the TD5 pedal electrics high up and out the way, gets rid of water and also removes the cable past the gearbox issue …. Good luck with your hunt next weekend and keep me posted Cheers Martin TD5 90 in Hertfordshire

8th Jan 2018 2:19pm

roel Member Since: 08 Aug 2009 Location: Lelystad Posts: 2039	You could try to clean the black plug on the ecu. That helped for me. I had the same problem for a while but after cleaning the black plug I didn't have the problem again. Yet.  Roel 1984 90 2.5 na Diesel - RR V8 (1994-2001) 1997 Camel Trophy Discovery 300TDI (2001-2009) 2005 G4 Discovery III 4.4 V8 (2008-2018) It's gone but it still hurts. 2003 90 Td5 (2009-now)
9th Jan 2018 3:01pm

blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17314

It may be that the potentiometer tracks in the pedal assmbly are breaking down. I had a similar problem some while ago with my Td5 Disco 2 (with a three track pot) and the problem was that at one position one track would appear open circuit, causing the ECU to detect a malfunction. In my case however the vehicle went into limp mode and the MIL came on. Cycling the ignition would clear the fault (and in fact I became quite a dab hand at shutting the engine off and restarting it whilst driving). The solution was to fit a new pedal assembly. The pot tracks in the pedal assembly are the most fragile and hence least reliable part of the system, they are also susceptible to getting all manner of crud in and on them.

9th Jan 2018 4:15pm

bankz5152 Member Since: 02 Feb 2017 Location: South London/North Kent Posts: 2142	If it makes any odds my old 90 pedal was submerged multiple times with the throttle underwater, after 4 years it was still fine, water may not be the issue. However what can happen is the ECU loom rubs through around the gearbox and can cause such issues. Should be able to check with a multimeter if this is the case. Easy-ish to fix by running a new loom using some trailer cable.
9th Jan 2018 5:12pm

Mc071963 Member Since: 06 Jan 2018 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 48

looks like we are in good company !!! Well I'm making progress and I've tripped over these bit's of interesting info. so heres a chap with a transit with exactly the same problem ..... http://www.talkford.com/community/topic/27...em-solved/ Now have a look here .... ignoring the fact that the bloke is worried about the sky falling on his head http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=158327 slide down to the second picture in his post ..... recognize the lump on the side of his foot peddle ?? Theres lot's of part numbers to choose from and the model number for the Defender version is PBT-(GF20+GB20) and then if you hunt in the far east for the actually part ..... https://kaimin.en.alibaba.com/product/6027...RATOR.html it's amazingly cheap ...... so theirs a cracking markup on a new unit at £140 odd at the moment my money is on broken cable which is the bit I'm looking into now and thanks for all your comments so far Cheers TD5 90 in Hertfordshire

10th Jan 2018 8:43pm

fergyreid Member Since: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Gloucestershire Posts: 10

Hi Martin, Haven't got to my truck yet but i learnt something that may be of interest. I've ordered up the pins and cable to make my new loom from a company called simtekuk. Jay (The technical director) is obviously extremely knowledgeable and helpful, and was telling me that the 3rd pot in the later pedals only covers the first 3rd of pedal travel. This was done to smooth "take-off" from the early td5s which were prone to being a bit jumpy and sensitive at the bottom of the rev range. I can rev my truck if i floor it quickly, moving through this first 3rd, but if i try and feather the throttle it throws the MIL and i lose throttle. Leading me to believe its either the 3rd track that's gone (struggling to believe as it does the same with the pedal from my dads behaving 110) and so its looking like its in the loom for me. May be worth you trying to ascertain where your truck is throwing the MIL? Is it in the first 3rd either at take off or at lower revs driving? If you are looking for wiring/plugs/pins/landrover chat than i would give Simtekuk a ring (I'm not on commission.) Can't believe i'm saying it but i'm looking forward to getting the Fluke out! Cheers, Fergus

12th Jan 2018 12:15pm

MadTom Member Since: 10 Sep 2013 Location: Olomouc Posts: 614	Description of the pedal is in RAVE, with some drawings showing output voltage versus movement of the pedal. If you think, you have problem with the 3rd way, it is possible to switch the engine ECU to work only with the 1st and 2nd ways of pedal. With Nanocom just two simple clicks. "Drobek" = The Small One - Discovery 2, "Blufínek" = The Blue Thing - Defender 130, and for me at least Ford Mondeo
12th Jan 2018 12:51pm

rallysteve Member Since: 10 Feb 2014 Location: Cumbria Posts: 2222	If the throttle pot is wearing out, it will always be the first part of the potentiometer tracks which wears first as it sees the most use. 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab Rebuild Thread
12th Jan 2018 1:08pm

mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5034	Agreed - its a common issue, i have heard og this a lot certainly Mike
12th Jan 2018 1:16pm

geobloke Member Since: 06 Nov 2012 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 4410	Just seen this kit on eBay, may be useful to someone - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Defender-TDCi-T...2a8216f52c
12th Jan 2018 2:04pm

Mc071963 Member Since: 06 Jan 2018 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 48	Hi MadTom Sorry to ask a stupid question but what's RAVE ? Good luck fergyreid with the fluke ! Cheers Martin TD5 90 in Hertfordshire
12th Jan 2018 4:24pm

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