 | Home > Technical > Main relay on Defender? ** Car still randomly cutting out ** |
 
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295   
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Hello Stacey007
I may have missed the outcome of this... but how did you get on... 
And was it possible to fit... 
without removing the complete ignition barrel...
Also did you go OEM Land Rover £60ish, Lucas £30ish...or Britpart <£10...
Hope you are up and (continually) running again...  SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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14th Dec 2017 11:46am |
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but I've changed nothing....
| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Hello Stacey007
Well good luck...
OEM Switch or Factored Part...
'Sorry'...best attempt at a summary... I too have an interest in this area, occasionally I have a non-starter, it has never cut out while running (or worse while driving...  ) I checked near enough everything (short of checking the complete wiring loom) I did however check 'continuity' between each point and voltage at all key points. I then (out of frustration) changed the Starter Motor and Battery, after first returning the 'Truck' (there is a diliberate typo there... ) to 'Stock', so removing a Battery Isolation Switch (on Starter Motor), an XDefend Steering Lock (as it requires the repositioning of the 'Ignition Fob Coil' out of its factory position)...All made no difference...occasionally a non-starter. Main and Starter Motor Relay's were also replaced.
I became convinced that one connection on the rear of this Ignition Switch was to blame as when not starting I removed the instrument cluster, again...(i'm <10minutes now...  ) and when removing cleaning and replacing the White Red wire..it always starts (well always so far).
Click image to enlarge So what am I actually doing by removing cleaning and replacing this particular wire... i'm not sure, maybe i'm just 'disturbing' this part of the ignition switch, and mines 'on its way out'...Slowly
My approach... somewhat 'trial and error' is to change one thing and see, as the only thing I trust is the experience of use (over a reasonable time period). Un-related (but maybe not)...I also looked back to 'what I did and when' and I noticed that up to fitting my ScangaugeII I had no issues, I'm don't think (or believe) that this is to blame, but I have unplugged it from the OBDII Port for 1 week now, and had no issues starting so far. I would generally get a hesitation or more typically a straigt non-start once a fortnight, with the vehicle used daily. So I remain on a quest to solve this...and I can see that (to eliminate this component) I well may swap over to a new Ignition Switch (rear element) to add that too, to my list. To their 'credit' Land Rover did show real reluctance to 'take a look at this' as at £150 / Hr exc. VAT (at my nearest) I think they felt it would test the financial tolerance of this (or any) customer. Or they may know these can be a  to fix sometimes...who knows. SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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14th Dec 2017 1:36pm |
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| Stacey007 Member Since: 25 Sep 2015 Location: Cheshire Posts: 3749
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Skip
I asked the garage should I get the OEM part or non genuine he said get the non genuine. Without hesitation so I have, he seems to think quite straightforward to fit. I do hope it fixes it.... Keep me updated how yours finding goes |
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14th Dec 2017 2:08pm |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Hi Stacey007...Thanks
Will do, and yes I hope you get your fix too...
I'm probably here, mid way on the price curve, also I've had no bad experience so far with Bearmach and the Ignition Switch / Complete Ignition Barrel is I think a LUCAS bit of kit from the 70's, so sticking with that bang up to date 'vintage componentry' ... https://www.lrdirect.com/LR039638-supplied...LUCAS.html Good Luck SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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14th Dec 2017 2:45pm |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Well took delivery of my LUCAS Ignition Switch and thought I'd swap it out...I mean how difficult could it be...
I'm doing this on a MY2011 2.4 Puma so my suspicion is that most if not all 2.4's will be similar if not the same. Whilst as Martin rightly states the instructions for this procedure imply a single retaining screw and that it is possible to do the swap without removing the main Ignition Barrel...I think, from my experience this is near enough impossible...as pictures tell the story better, if your faced with needing to do the same, here's what I did...at each 'now what do I do moment' First step was to remove the 'single' retaining screw... I used a magnetic to turn and 'capture' the final undo...drop it and it's gone...
Click image to enlarge Second step was to 'ease' out the Ignition Switch... but No it moved slightly but it is clear quickly that there is more going on here...
Click image to enlarge Third step coffee and good think... forcing my hand round the back of the Main Barrel and just getting my fingertip onto the 'hidden' screw, i decided that I was going to clear the area, so everything got stripped away...
Click image to enlarge Forth step...make the decision to get the Main Barrel (and Ignition Switch Assembly) out... checked first that the retaining bolts are M8 Click image to enlarge Fifth step, 'drift' out the right hand Bolt... I knew at this point that the left hand Bolt was more tricky as the angle of 'attack' on a Puma is just too acute, with the centre punch (in my case) lying over at not an ideal angle. The right Bolt as soon as it moves actually comes out OK. I suspect that for a TD5 or 300 / 200 TDIs without the Puma 'shelf' both Bolts are more accessible...but in Puma world things are different...
Click image to enlarge Sixth step inspect Security Bolt...complete with Lock Tight... Click image to enlarge Seventh step confirm what you already know the left hand Bolt is altogether a different task... I really tried thinking that it would eventually undo, I tried all my punches even bending one to try and get a better approach...but No I just couldn't get it to move...
Click image to enlarge Eight step drill a 20mm hole in the top right hand corner of the Main Fuse 'area' this hole would be covered (hidden) by both the Fuse access cover (Door) and also the rubber inlay on the shelf...so after another coffee and a good think I committed... this shows looking up though the Fuse area and onto the left hand Bolt...
Click image to enlarge Ninth step drill a receiving hole for an e-z out bolt extractor... Click image to enlarge Tenth step set up the e-z out, mine has a 18mm dia main shank which set the drilled hole size of 20mm through the Dash, this hole dia was also required for the Pilot hole drill extension rod I used. I also had a 20mm rubber grommet in line to use but ultimately didn't need it... the left hand Bolt came out really easy... Click image to enlarge Eleventh step with the Main Barrel now 'free' was to withdraw it...but No...
What became clear is that the 'weeding' of the main Dash (Holes cut in) are more to aid assembly at LR Not to aid Maintenance, the Main Barrel needs to be lifted around 10mm to disengage the steering lock from the column, it also need to be 'rolled out' to allow its shape to clear the steering column...after another coffee I decided that more 'surgery' was required on the Dash to make things 'right' (LR... ) you can see the marked up area to be removed matching the area on the right...
Click image to enlarge Twelfth step surgery completed (but not tidied up) Click image to enlarge Thirteenth step Main Barrel now is free to be withdrawn and for the first time free enough access to the rear connections which are a positive 'click on' type connection so require good 'hands on' feel to disengage, so another reason in support of getting the Main Barrel out... Click image to enlarge Fourteenth step get a good look at that second screw...
Click image to enlarge Fifteenth step swap over Ignition Switch... Click image to enlarge Sixteenth step 'adjust' down the diameter of the two replacement Bolts this show two standard SS Dome head Bolts, I put back Security versions, although I question if security bolts are even needed here, as I doubt they add much Click image to enlarge Eighteenth step...put it all back together...and she starts first time...
I really hope I have solved my intermittent starting problem with this Ignition Switch Swap...doable but not untypically more to it when you actually come to it...  SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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22nd Dec 2017 5:54pm |
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| Stacey007 Member Since: 25 Sep 2015 Location: Cheshire Posts: 3749
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Wow skip...
That looks like a job a fair few choice words may be used... Great pictures, I'm planning on the garage doing it when I take mine in... Has it helped? / stopped as yet thanks |
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27th Dec 2017 2:57pm |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Hello Stacey007
Thanks...Well so far so good, but I have learnt to reserve judgement regarding this issue, as I have lived and 'pursued' my intermittent starting problem for a year now, and only time will tell....1 in 30+ starts failed, often then starting on the next attempt, so when you have only this to go on, and no reliable 'testable' failed condition, it (for me anyway) has proved a real headache...
I have deliberately use the Defender for every trip possible over the Holidays, so it has been started maybe half a dozen times a day for the last 7 days, and I have a feeling that I may be lucky now and have fixed my 'doggy connection'... it defiantly triggers the Starter Motor quicker when on position III, which of course could be just new contacts making a more positive connection... If it does persist i'm running out of things to replace...
If I have fixed my problem then the 'take away' from this is list everything you think it could be and work through them in order of from the least expensive to the most expensive... if your really lucky (unlike me) it will break and stay broke and and a good hour or so later with your Multi Meter and you would be able to isolate most reasons for a non-starter.
Good luck with yours... I'm still not sure what the Ignition Switch does after 'Ignition'...would (could) it 'deliver' your symptoms...cut out a running engine, someone on here will know, but it seams to me unlikely from my understanding of it, I guess you could check by disconnecting various wires when running and see on the assumption you are probably only replicating your cut out scenario...i'd just want to know that by doing this you would not be causing any damage to the engine (and I don't know that to be the case) but i'd be tempted to try...or just spend the £30 and swap it over and prove by long term testing... SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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29th Dec 2017 5:12pm |
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| Stacey007 Member Since: 25 Sep 2015 Location: Cheshire Posts: 3749
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*** Update ****
O k so I think (and hope) its been a while since I have had the new ignition switch fitted and while it was in he had a new Maf Sensor off a car that ordered it but didn't need so he put that on. I've probably driven 2000 miles since including just done the Lakes and back for week driving around. 100% its been great actually driving better than even (what are these trucks limited to?) Its driven really well.
2 things could be better... It still vibrates around 54 mph and garage thinks it is the wheel spacers as nothing else is worn / not been changed. These is also around the same speed a sort of hesitation.. like its hunting but you drive right through it either below or over this speed? Very odd. Other than that the car drove really well just wanting to 'go' even loaded up with camping gear
so fingers crossed |
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13th Apr 2018 6:52pm |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Hello All,
Quick update...almost a year on and no reassurance of my 'will she wont she start' phase of ownership. Mine never died when running, it only ever made up its mind to start or not, when the key was turned... 100% Ignition Barrel failure, 'breaking down internally' with a so-so connection. SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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20th Sep 2018 5:17pm |
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| Stacey007 Member Since: 25 Sep 2015 Location: Cheshire Posts: 3749
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Great news !!!
I'm please mine was a relatively easy and cheap fix. Although very un-nerving the car just losing all power and dials then coming back on  |
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20th Sep 2018 6:05pm |
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| marcoegyptos Member Since: 16 May 2009 Location: Vetraz-Monthoux Posts: 29 
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Hello ,
After two or three years of similar problem , the car use to start and stop immediately , I was obliged to switch off the positive battery cable and the car restart without problem . Last summer, I disconnect the Scangauge and since that time, I don't have any more problem of starting . This can help . |
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20th Sep 2018 8:06pm |
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| blurry Member Since: 20 Oct 2020 Location: Wales Posts: 5
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Hi Martin, Came across this thread while trying to find out why a have a new problem, puma 2.4tdci, which includes the loss of power to elect heated seats (switches no longer illuminate) Heated front screen (switches no longer illuminated), elec windows no longer work, heated rear screen (switch also no longer illuminated), wipers no work, dipped headlights no work ecept on flash main beam. Instrument panel is dead, no ignition lights and no trip computer, alarm light works, indicators work, sidelights work, hazard lights work, radio works and heater blower works. Van starts with no issues, and the central locking and alarm works too. All fuses have been checked and are fine. The problem occured when swapping a couple of relays around to see if one was faulty, the relays were the 4 pin 40amp ones. What/where is this 'additional ignition controlled relay by the main switch that you mention please? |
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29th Dec 2020 7:32pm |
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| Martin Site Admin Member Since: 02 Apr 2007 Location: Hook Norton Posts: 6605 
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Intermittent loss of these things or have they gone completely?
1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top
2015 D90 XS SW |
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29th Dec 2020 8:31pm |
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| blurry Member Since: 20 Oct 2020 Location: Wales Posts: 5
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Hi Martin,
At the moment gone completely. |
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29th Dec 2020 11:13pm |
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