 | Home > Off Topic > I have always had my doubts on Nicola Sturgeon’s rationality |
 
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| ARC99 Member Since: 19 Feb 2013 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1831   
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I would suggest that we as the UK voted on whether to stay in the E.U. or not, we did not vote as four different Countries.
It is the U.K. that joined the E.U. not four different Countries. The sooner the Northern Irish, Scots and Welsh leaders realise this and help to do what's is best for the U.K. the better. On the other hand all those that oppose Brexit can move to Scotland and play happy families with S.N.P. Don't make old people mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to  us off.
Richard |
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14th Mar 2017 11:20am |
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| Slideywindows Member Since: 09 Sep 2016 Location: North Essex Posts: 1286 
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That makes us laugh down here! Try this for a different perspective: For 15 years the English were "shafted" by a Scottish Government in Westminster! Tony Blair. Prime Minister. Elected by Scottish voters in a Scottish constituency. Gordon Brown, Chancellor of the Exchequer/Prime Minister. Elected by Scottish voters in a Scottish constituency. John Reid. Home Secretary. Elected by Scottish voters in a Scottish constituency. Etc... Anyone in England who doesn't support Labour, has had Labour Governments forced on them by Scottish voters ever since WWII. The "Barnet Formula" was set up to milk English taxpayers in order that each Scot had more public money spent on them per head, than each English taxpayer. The Scots in Westminster happily kept this going for decades! Good luck if you think you will have as much Scottish influence in the EU, as you've had in Westminster! 
What you may not have noticed north of the Border, is that this militant Scottish Nationalism is having the effect of increasing militant English Nationalism. Has Ms Sturgeon really considered the consequences? |
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14th Mar 2017 12:35pm |
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| ARC99 Member Since: 19 Feb 2013 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1831
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Someone has got the facts wrong.
Anthony Blair was born on 6 May 1953 in Edinburgh. Educated at Oxford University, he became a barrister and in 1983 was elected Labour member of parliament for Sedgefield. Sedgefield is NOT in Scotland but County Durham. Don't make old people mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to us off.
Richard |
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14th Mar 2017 12:44pm |
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| Ramsay Member Since: 30 Sep 2015 Location: Moffat, Dumfries & Galloway Posts: 629  
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Why would the Northern Irish, Welsh or Scots leaders be inclined to offer support when as they see it the UK government is not doing anything that is in their interests.
These events were always on the cards once Brexit was acted on. There will be continued pressure from all countries for further break up. Balkanisation anyone? PM May will be always fighting a defensive battle against this. It is a harder argument to make to some Scots that you must stay in a union with England while leaving a union with Europe. FM Sturgeon is being logical. I am not sure she is sensible as the support for independence from England while significant is not the same as those voting to remain in the EU. As to what they will propose it seems to early to say. Nothing on currency, the 2014 campaign was attacked for expecting to retain the GBP. They need to come up with an economic argument that works with oil only as bonus not an economic pillar. They won't get the UK seat on the EU but they might get something. They are a similar size to Eire, Finland and Denmark so not impossibly small. The economy is odd as England appears as such a major trading partner. Further processing and packaging plays a part in this. The export value of whisky is well reported as belonging to Scotland. The case with some foods is less clear. Scottish independence may well result in the Scots being much poorer but as Brexit looks set to mean that for the whole UK they may think it a price worth paying for sovereignty and self determination. 1995 Defender 110 CSW 1971 SIIA Lightweight |
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14th Mar 2017 1:02pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17480 
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I fail to understand why only the Scots get to vote on Scottish independence.
Given that the UK electorate voted on whether or not the UK should leave the EU, and that Scotland is presently part of the UK, personally I feel that if there is to be a referendum on Scottish independence then the whole UK electorate should get a vote. If may be that the majority of Scots sensibly decide that remining in the UK is good, but the rest of the UK elecotrate so tired of the Scots that it decides to throw them to the dogs and vote them out. |
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14th Mar 2017 1:27pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17480
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This seems to be a rather controversial assertion - no-one seems to have a clue what Brexit means for UK prosperity. There are as many learned people arguing convincingly that it will improve as that it will not. |
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14th Mar 2017 1:31pm |
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| JJ Member Since: 18 May 2009 Location: Winchester Posts: 932 
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It was inevitable that Sturgeon would grasp the opportunity to play politics with Brexit , she must be rubbing her hands in glee.
The problem is Sturgeon wants the Westminster government to guarantee certain things or else.... the problem being that there are no guarantees on anything as the other 27 nations all get a say. Sturgeon knows that but being the clever politician she is the blame will be placed at Westminster and there is no answer. The Scots aren't gullible and I hope they can see through the sham that this is. No matter what May does she will be criticised for doing the wrong thing by the SNP , hiding to nothing from a one dimensional party. The SNP should get Farage in as they share so much in common. Winchester voted to stay in the EU by some way but by and large accept the democractic result and will get on with the painful process of the divorce from the EU, it is not a time to be distracted by internal fighting, there is too much at stake. Shame on the SNP. HR064 Hampshire and Berkshire 4x4 Response |
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14th Mar 2017 1:43pm |
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| Scotm Member Since: 28 Feb 2014 Location: Aberdeenshire Posts: 667 
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Whilst I normally shy away from politics and especially this particular issue I feel the need to add some comment to this discussion.
My family comes from Northern Ireland and I was born in Belfast, I spent my informative years being brought up in England on the border of North Wales. When I reached my early thirties my wife and I chose to move to NE Scotland where we have lived now for 15 years and call home. We have two daughters both born in Scotland and would proudly call themselves Scottish. I certainly describe myself British first and then proudly say from Scotland. I even own a kilt! The first thing I noticed moving up here compared to living in England, apart from the welcoming people, was the national pride and the local customs. The list of Scottish local customs would easily dwarf a similar list from England. I don’t see being such a proud nation a bad thing, in fact I personally feel this is something that England is lacking. I do wonder if this is because the Scottish schools actually teach the local customs and dialects where as in England it seems that political correctness is watering this down? The second thing I noticed was the lack of coverage or relevant stories that included Scotland in the supposed National British (BBC) news. Slideydoor – it is easy enough for you to switch off or mute your TV to cut out any Scottish content should you so wish but if someone wanted to do that up here in relation to “down south” news they may as well not bother turning on the TV in the first place. Examples I refer to are news stories on subjects such as education or health that only quote England and Wales statistics. The recent business rate concerns only mentioned what was happening in England, there was no mention of the massive peak that NE Scottish business were experiencing due to the rates being set before the current oil crisis. I am not going to start on how the oil crisis job losses were portrayed in the news in comparison to the Welsh steel plants. However I think I will touch on the weather as it is a common British obsession. So in 2005 the BBC moved from a flat map to a 3D global image that pushed Scotland away into the distance. (I actually think this might be what caused the resurgence for independence!) This I never understood as it clearly doesn’t portray the actual British land mass area correctly. The National BBC weather took it in its wisdom to forecast the weather focusing more on where the population is based rather than where the most weather is happening. I regularly see National news reporting “extreme” weather such as wind, floods and snow down south when similar goes unreported up here. A prime example was the Christmas 2015/New Year 2016 storms – the majority of the flood news reports focused on the Lake District and there were very few mentions of what was happening on the River Dee and other rivers in NE Scotland. How do you think the residents in S England would have felt if their flooding a few years earlier in 2013/2014 had gone unreported? Did you know in winter 2009/2010 we had snow on the ground here for 3 months or are you aware that there has been so little snow this winter that the Scottish ski resorts are laying people off? I only use the above as examples of how I as a Brit living in Scotland see simple things that go some way to marginalizing the Scottish, creating an anti-British feeling and fuelling the SNP. I am not intelligent enough to understand or comment on the political side other than that I would rather the SNP got on with running and improving Scotland rather than keeping chewing on the independence bone. They seemed to be doing a reasonable job before this questionable focus. (Apologies for the length of this post if you got this far!) |
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14th Mar 2017 1:44pm |
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| gilarion Member Since: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Wales Posts: 5111  
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^^^^^^^^^^
I could not agree more with your comments and as a regular visitor to Scotland I have seen first-hand their friendliness and the national pride that Scottish people have for their land. However, and I feel strongly about this, and so this is my take on some of your valid points, a lot of what you say is down to the political abrasiveness of the Scottish National party and perhaps in a smaller measure the Scottish Green party. Both parties seem to me to have a misguided belief that Scotland gets a raw deal from Westminster when in reality I do not think they do. Scotland makes up less than a tenth of the British population but under the formual it equates to fully a third ... which means that Scotland does better than it would on any needs-based assessment, in fact every Scottish person gets £1,700 more from Government than their English counterparts, it has long been established that under the Barnett formula it favours Scotland much more strongly than it does Wales or Northern Ireland, added to this Scotland gets free tertiary education, free prescriptions, eye care etc. Perhaps if the SNP and Greens were to meet their English counterparts half way instead of appearing as Scotland's Militant tendency things may improve, it would also help if the SNP could get their heads around the fact that 55.3% voted to remain in the union and that is a majority no matter what Nicola Sturgeon thinks. For those who like Welsh Mountains and narrow boats have a look at my videos and photos at.. http://www.youtube.com/user/conwy1 |
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14th Mar 2017 2:57pm |
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| Scotm Member Since: 28 Feb 2014 Location: Aberdeenshire Posts: 667
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Not trying to be anyway confrontational at all - just general discussion
I thought I had clearly kept away from the political arguments as to whether Scotland gets a raw deal or not and was only focusing some simple almost tongue in cheek examples that maybe people living in the South had not actually considered. So it is interesting that gilarion thought my points related to those made by the political parties! As my brain is full enough of land rover junk I don't bother to even take in any of the political what if discussions. There are hundreds of arguments either way, some of which people have already pointed out in this thread. |
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14th Mar 2017 3:39pm |
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| Ramsay Member Since: 30 Sep 2015 Location: Moffat, Dumfries & Galloway Posts: 629
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If you mean this sort of endorsement it is hardly ringing. It assumes levels of competence and performance from the government that they have not been capable of over say the NHS or having aircraft and aircraft carriers available at the same time. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/...-brexit-us 1995 Defender 110 CSW 1971 SIIA Lightweight |
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14th Mar 2017 4:26pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17480
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No, I simply mean that to say that the economy is going to suffer as a result of Brexit is fatuous and is the mantra of a Remainer, in the same way that to say the economy is going to prosper is fatuous and is the mantra of a Brexiteer.
No-one has a clue what is going to happen to the economy, all that is certain is uncertainty, and uncertainty is certain whether we leave and have a bunch of barely competent people whom we elect control our destiny, or remain and have a bunch of barely competent people whom we don't elect control our destiny. Your comment seems to suggest that you believe that if the UK remains in the EU the UK will have more competent governance that it will if it leaves, and since nothing I have ever seen about the EU supports that argument it is a belief which I cannot share. A UK government has a duty to put the best interests of the UK first. An EU government has a duty to put the interests of the EU ahead of the interests of any member state. Until such time as every citizen thinks like a European and national differences are set aside, I doubt that the EU model will ever be satisfactory. It worked as a Common Market, but then the megalomania took over and broke it. |
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14th Mar 2017 4:47pm |
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| Ramsay Member Since: 30 Sep 2015 Location: Moffat, Dumfries & Galloway Posts: 629
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My comment is that it matters more if the UK is leaving the EU that it has competent governance. And that on current evidence this government is not in a great position to provide that. It does matter and is not fatuous to suggest it. They will have to negotiate a way out of the EU at least cost to the UK that does not seriously impact the trading relationship with the remaining EU countries.
It as all very well for PM May to say she would leave without a deal instead of a bad one but that is the economic equivalent of Mutually assured destruction. The reality is she has to cut a deal and a good one to keep the economy on course. They might get good trade deals elsewhere in the long term. They will have to keep the UK services economy trading with the EU to keep the UK on track. Which means we have to hope that the EU economies keep going in at least a stable fashion. The delight with which some Brexiteers seem to be hoping for the demise of the Euro is shocking when they don't seem to consider the effects on the UK economy of this. There are arguments back and forth on whether stability for the UK is likely to be greater in or out of the EU but more debt crisis there will effect us through trade and inter bank lending. So yes I am pretty pessimistic that the government can keep all these balls in the air. It starts to make participating in reform of the EU instead look like it was almost possible in comparison. 1995 Defender 110 CSW 1971 SIIA Lightweight |
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14th Mar 2017 7:04pm |
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| shaggydog Member Since: 12 Aug 2012 Location: Kent Posts: 3347 
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 Click image to enlarge This popped up on my facebook feed and seems to sum up the situation fairly well. Running Restoration Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/post323197.html#323197 Self confessed mileage hunter  |
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15th Mar 2017 12:48pm |
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