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| lambert.the.farmer Member Since: 11 Apr 2012 Location: harrogate Posts: 2006   
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Quick question, when we leave, will I still be bound by EU directives eg fitting of type approved towing equipment to a passenger car? Rhubarb and custard let fly with their secret weapon.
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22nd Jun 2016 6:33am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5816  
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I have to say Bob, I disagree. Our passport, whilst issued by the Home Office (who no doubt have primacy over its allocation) is a European standard document. Like the driver's licence. Even the words 'European Union' come above United Kingdom on the cover. Standard look, standard technology, standard size, standard colour. European document in every way, and if it wasn't, why does every new member state take it on? Further the EU is already trying to standardise the MOT and driving tests across Europe, plus allow greater exchange of driver data, so it's only a matter of time before number plates will also be standardised. My issue with the remain campaign is not just about my views on the EU now (bloated, unaccountable, unelected, too heavily influencing) but about the future and whilst they have happily banged on about how the UK will fail if we leave, no-one has made any assurance (because they can't) that not only will the EU remain as it is now, but will improve with the culling of officials and streamlining of bureaucracy that is so needed. And not one has accepted when asked that they cannot, in any way, shape or form, prevent the EU from actually becoming worse and even more homogeneous. So whilst Davidson may be right in saying that the current passport is a British passport, she absolutely cannot say that it WILL remain the same. I warrant that if you asked the leaders in the various governments 40 years ago about the influences the EU would have over sovereign states 40 years on, they would have balked at the idea. Our great black passport becoming red? Never. The historic Franc becoming joined with the Deutschmark, not on your life. Borders being open, heavens above, not a chance!! So, when I am about to pop my clogs in 40 years time, I fully expect to see one of two things after this referendum has had its say. Either a larger, more inclusive borderless single state in all but name (economies, laws, etc) and in which the UK is a fully paid up member, or, because we choose to leave, the EU being shrunk if not disbanded as the Euro fails, as the new economies (Albania, Macendonia, Romania etc) fail to meet their continued criteria for membership without being shored up by the big five, closed borders as immigration becomes uncontrolled and sovereign states reidentifying with their people, their history and their individuality. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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22nd Jun 2016 6:39am |
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| bob neville Member Since: 30 Apr 2009 Location: Marbella Posts: 3248  
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I agree that the passport has European Union written on it but legally it is a British Document, and as such, is the property of the UK.
Number plates are the same, some have just standard numbers and letters, some have a small GB, some have a small EU etc but they are British number plates. The process to change such items will be done on a gradual basis, in fact in the same way the EU branding appeared. If it is done big bang then think of all the new jobs it will create !! The UK can't force France, for example, to change it's number plate system because it does not conform to our standard for letter size etc so why should the EU have any say on our format other than to remove the EU name - which I can totally understand ? I think there will be bigger things to worry about when we vote to leave on Thursday !! Bob 2015 Jaguar XE240 R Sport - goes like ....... !! 2013 Defender 90 CSW - sold 2009 Defender 110 Double Cab - sold 2001 TD5 90 CSW - offroad project - sold to a forum member 2011 Porsche Boxster - for the sunny days ! |
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22nd Jun 2016 7:38am |
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| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5035  
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Europe wont make us change the side of the road we drive, or speed signs to KM or any of the rubbish thats been around for years - thats just the scare stories of the leave lot.
The issue of what happens if we leave is one conveniently ignored by the leave lot, they talk about this magical place following our departure - but i suspect everything they say is bad would remain exactly as it is now and then the impact of their decision would make it worse Take immigration, They complain at immigration - but everyone isnt going to up at leave on Friday - so NO change, why leave If people dont leave - are they going to make them UK citizens? NO change and making it worse, so why leave If people dont leave - are they going to make them leave? A big issue for all the services and industry etc Finally what if more people come? Moving onto laws and other processes - the inference here is we are going to ditch all of these things, well thats a big move and would cause massive problems and time to process everything. However, if the comment is we would keep everything established but linked to Europe - then on Friday we wouldn't be changing anything - so why leave!?
This is the biggest issue thats been missed by leave, but stated by everyone else. The answer is Yes, most probably. I would see us having to comply with many things that we dont have a chance to influence, where as now WE DO influence, opt out of and define many if not all of these sort of rules - they arent imposed on us as leave would like you to think. Mike |
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22nd Jun 2016 8:16am |
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| Lost for Words Member Since: 18 Jun 2015 Location: Warminster, Wiltshire Posts: 200 |
Nonsense. Leaving does not require us to sign up to EU regulations for the whole country. All those arguments revolve around the stupid fear that we cannot cope without the single market and our trading position with the EU is completely dismissed. We hold the cards and if they don't give us free access to the single market, it is their loss, and we would be better off without it.
As per my post on Disco3, I don't know where you've got the idea that this has anything to do with throwing out existing immigrants because it's not (and they are not going to be sent home), it's about future migration, which is a very big change. We can make it fairer and sustainable. Visiting from DISCO3.CO.UK Discovery 3 TDV6 Auto HSE Zambezi Silver  |
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22nd Jun 2016 8:31am |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298 
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I can't wait till after tomorrow I have to say. there appears to be so much sh11te in the air. I'm kinda guessing all the car manufacturers are suddenly gonna shut up shop and move manufacturing elsewhere in Europe cos Europe is the only place we import / export from? and of course if we exit no one in Europe will buy any from the UK all of a sudden just as you suddenly won't see anymore bmw's or audi's on the road here? |
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22nd Jun 2016 8:52am |
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| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5035
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Conversely the same argument applies with leave, except we are in the EU now - leave spout the same fear on more EU integration, states, armies etc etc, having all our own stuff if we leave, how great everything is, we can have our own way, setting our own way, everything in Europe is bad so we leave we wont have any of it. What your/leave are saying is everything in europe is bad now, but we will still keep it OR everything in europe is bad, but we will still need to follow it to be part of it but thats better because we dont have a say. as i said on d4... The comments around immigration imply that there will be a change - if we are only talking about the future, which is not what leave people have said, they use and refer to the past, seriously suggesting they would do something about those here now - leave have admitted and its widely know, the potential is for greater numbers to come here in the future out of the eu and the Australian system people talk about, has more potential to let in more. Also there is an impact to the people leaving the UK as the EU works both ways. So single handedly saying leave arent doing anything about those already here - shows how poor the whole immigration argument, which is their central argument is and actually how little would change and on Federal Europe: Firstly leave had made up the bit about a federal Europe - that isnt on the cards, its not what we are voting for now - its not the issue Second if it was, then we have a veto and elect people to UK and European parliaments and must get them working for us (so Nigel has to turn up) Third if it came around there is, already, the UK parliament agreement, to vote on more powers going to Europe - which would be triggered - so no risk there Fourth if it happened we would need to have a debate on it and see the pros and cons, ive not got a view now, i will at the time as its not going to happen, earliest i could see it talked about is 10-20 years time, thats a lifetime away Leave are masters of mixing issues, mixing number to paint a picture of everything in the UK's favour - but it wont be. Its like a divorce, we will loose - its just how big we will loose and as the other EU countries have a point to make - we will loose big! Mike |
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22nd Jun 2016 9:28am |
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| boode Member Since: 11 Apr 2012 Location: Devon Posts: 430 
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Why do the leave supporters believe that the EU will not impose import tariffs against our products (just like the rest of the world does against foreign imports).
Norway who pay more per person to trade with the EU, and still have free movement of people into their borders have huge tariffs against their Agricultural food and Fish exports into Europe. Their fishing industry struggles and would love to be a full member of the EU - not quite the picture Farage was promoting with his flotilla on the Thames. Why the blind belief that we are so important that the rest of the world will make life easy for our exports to survive ? Dyson, who having swapped from being very european now wants to leave - his main reason is all the different plugs he has to produce to sell across Europe - All the world use different plugs so will he only sell to the UK. Tate and Lyle sugar have come out in favour of leaving due to the high tariffs they pay to import Sugar Cane from outside Europe - what will the tariffs me to sell their sugar in to Europe once we leave - or why don't they support British Farmers and buy Home Grown Sugar Beet. Caterham - you are correct that the car manufactures will not suddenly leave, but most came to the UK to have access to the EU market ( with the help of EU grants) and any future investment will not be here. and Yes you will still be able to buy your BMWs but they will cost more, just as every other foreign import car costs more due to tariffs. So could someone please explain why an independent UK will have no tariffs on imports or exports to Europe, we will not have to conform to their regulations (on safety etc) but will have open access to their markets. And the rest of the world will suddenly drop their import tariffs to enable us to sell into their markets (and possibly undercut their own industries). They may even pay the cost of the transport to the four corners of the world to compensate us for not selling to our neighbours. |
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22nd Jun 2016 9:31am |
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| lambert.the.farmer Member Since: 11 Apr 2012 Location: harrogate Posts: 2006
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Another thing, all you remain supporters killed off the defender and now as a result I have to have a Jeep! That's all your fault, cheers.
 Rhubarb and custard let fly with their secret weapon. |
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22nd Jun 2016 9:44am |
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| Lost for Words Member Since: 18 Jun 2015 Location: Warminster, Wiltshire Posts: 200 |
That is not true. You are continuing this stance of having to follow the EU rules which is tosh.
The people that are here are here now and are not the problem of the future. The point is that uncontrolled immigration prevents any possibility of planning for our public services. We cannot continue to build and build and build houses on every patch of land, and even if we wanted to, it would be at a ridiculous rate to do so. We cannot have our own citizens undercut by large companies recruiting cheap labour across the EU rather than invest in training British people. Neither is it far to discriminate against people from outside the EU. The people that are already here are not going to present a problem in the future. People continuing to come in uncontrolled numbers would. Leave have not said they would send people home. That matter is perfectly clear and under the Vienna convention they have the aqquired rights to remain here, and that is absolutely fine. The key thing is, immigrants are not a problem, they are good people, but immigration can be.
Further integration and complete political and fiscal union is exactly what is on the cards. The Five President's report is very clear that this is the intention, and it is the issue. We have a veto over things, but in a system where we can be outvoted by other countries, using it creates political issues - there are consequences of using such vetos that mean it's not necessarily an option after all. The threat is there that the Commission could produce worse stuff that we risk being inflicted on ourselves. 10-20 years? A lifetime away? That is well within my lifetime (if all goes well!). 40 years should be within my lifetime, and there's every chance that I will be here in 60 years time. Visiting from DISCO3.CO.UK Discovery 3 TDV6 Auto HSE Zambezi Silver |
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22nd Jun 2016 10:02am |
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| Merlin Member Since: 30 Oct 2010 Location: Newmarket Posts: 981
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I won't miss the croissants, but the Black Forest gateaux, now that's a different matter!
Merlin |
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22nd Jun 2016 10:08am |
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| boode Member Since: 11 Apr 2012 Location: Devon Posts: 430
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Its funny how the EU gets the blame for the death of the Defender, when America banned it on safety grounds many years ago - if it had been improved to meet American regulations it would still be here.
Unfortunately this referendum will have huge consequences to industry, jobs, and the welfare of the country and is a little bigger than the ability to drive a Defender. Lambert - not sure if you are an actual farmer but if we leave you probably won't be for much longer - no UK government has ever supported farmers since the last war. You will also know how the rules from Europe are Gold plated by the unelected civil service in this country who make them far more complicated that they are in the rest of Europe. But Europe still gets the blame. |
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22nd Jun 2016 10:08am |
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| stanley Member Since: 18 Sep 2009 Location: Dorset /hampshire Posts: 1032 
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Neither EU or USA or any other country signed the death warrant for the defender , Sales and finance did , globally the market was small and reducing all the time , forget the last year of production when sales went crazy , the end of defender was looming on the horizon for many years
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22nd Jun 2016 10:15am |
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| Lost for Words Member Since: 18 Jun 2015 Location: Warminster, Wiltshire Posts: 200 |
We buy much more from them than they do from us. The figures are in our favour. If they want to impose tariffs, they would hurt themselves more than us. Indeed, I am not saying that they would definitely not impose tariffs, but I am saying that it's very, very unlikely, and also that it wouldn't be the end of the world if they did. They want us locked in their little box to they can sell to us at inflated prices. Well, it's time we shopped around for a better deal. That's how markets work, and that is what is so tragic about the single market. It does us no good being in it. Norway are not like us - they have a trade surplus instead of a defecit, and their economy is over 7 times smaller than ours. They sell more to the EU, so obviously, the EU would not want to give them access lightly, but that is the opposite for us. The truth is that we do not need to be important to do well. To do well, we simply need products and services that people want. We already export more outside the EU than we do to it, and 78% of the world's GDP is outside the EU. Trade is done when trade is good. It's about supply and demand. It cannot be engineered, and situations that result in preferential treatment of certain markets are terrible for competitveness and growth. That's why we need to open up to the whole world, not just the EU. You have to look beyond the lack of tariffs within the EU and consider what effect being shut in this little world has on us. Remember, the EU places tariffs between us and the rest of the world; if we leave, we can lower or abolish them, and our products will become more competitive and growth can occur. Taking your example of Tate & Lyle, yes, they could support British beet growers, but other people do that, and if they have found a good way to compete with their cane sugar, then that competition is important to get the best prices and quality for consumers. People have to compete to be part of the economy - if they don't, consumers suffer and the economy suffers. Visiting from DISCO3.CO.UK Discovery 3 TDV6 Auto HSE Zambezi Silver |
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22nd Jun 2016 10:25am |
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