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enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Java Black

Help! Loss of power despite fixed injector copper gasket

Dear fellow forumites,

my Defender gives me grief. But maybe someone has experienced something similar and knows more.

Starting this year, troubles begann with a loss of power. Then it developed a nasty Diesel knock and had problems with cold starts. Loss of power increased ever so slightly, knocking got more pronounced. I had the Defender checked out, and it was found to be leaking diesel on one of the injectors. So new copper gaskets were fitted, as well as new fuel lines... the results were stunning!

For a single, glorious ride home on the motorway, it drove like a new car! Instant start, instant power, no knocking.

Then, slowly, the next day, the troubles came creeping back. At first barely noticable. First were the bad starts. Then the creeping loss of power. A more pronounced diesel knock developing by the day. Now, it's randomly starting to get a rough idle, which pulses back and forth from a normal motor idle to a noisy one while it sits in the parking lot. Again, it drives noticeably slower.

So I figured, maybe the injector worked itself loose again. I went back to the garage, they checked it it again - nope, everything is still fixed and fine. No new diesel leak.

Something that was alleviated by the new gaskets is coming back. But what could it be? We're all a bit at a loss.

Any idea what it could be? Input is highly appreciated.

Thanks!

E.D.

PS: EGR is brand new as well and at no point were any error codes logged.

31st May 2016 6:57pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20348

Did you have any injectors replaced? If so was the learn process completed?

31st May 2016 7:16pm

enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

No, they weren't replaced, just put back in.

31st May 2016 7:20pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey

Did they / and are you supposed to replace the retaining bolts too?

31st May 2016 7:20pm

enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

I think they did replace them.

(Caterham, congrats! Post #4000 is coming up!)

31st May 2016 7:25pm

tomdaprince

Member Since: 23 Feb 2015
Location: IJmuiden
Posts: 54

2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Tonga Green

Sounds like a faulty injector mate, so did the first issue for that matter. Have injectors tested, and have a look at the VCV valve, those are problem causers as well.

Btw injector retaining bolts MUST be replaced when taken out. And have the injector seats been properly cleaned before they where put back in? Fiddling with a commonrail fuel system seems easy but only the smallest cockup can have major consequences.

1st Jun 2016 6:54am

enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

Bad news

The garage where they repaired the gasket issue is very knowledgable (independent Defender specialist), so I presume they did everything properly on the gasket change.

Albeit I have to concede you're probably right that having a faulty injector might be the next conclusion.

How bad of a repair is fitting a new injector?

What baffles me is why for a single trip after the copper gasket repair everything seemed fine. If the injector was faulty all along, it should have still caused trouble. How could it be?

1st Jun 2016 8:33am

tomdaprince

Member Since: 23 Feb 2015
Location: IJmuiden
Posts: 54

Replacing the injector is fairly easy, pretty much the same as what was already done, only with a new one instead of the old one.

Important though is to go through the injector learning procedure again.

Little surprised though that the specialist did not decide to have the injectors tested anyway, now they have to come out again so you washed the 7 quit per copper washer down the drain. New injectors are insanely expensive though, I recently went with Denso reconditioned (reconditioned by Denso) which I am very happy with, still insanely expensive but quite a bit less than newnew.

Can't think of any explanation of why the issue was gone after the washer change.

1st Jun 2016 8:43am

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

Wa hoo !

4000. Hadn't noticed.

how sure are we that it's the injector? To my find there's no end of things that can cause what seems like injector knock and presumably a loss of power.

Can anyone confirm if doing an injector re-learn should show up if an injector was actually faulty?

good luck.

1st Jun 2016 9:14am

tomdaprince

Member Since: 23 Feb 2015
Location: IJmuiden
Posts: 54

Can be many many things causing the issue but you gotta start somewhere and a leaking or dripping injector could definitely cause it.

Only way to see if these injectors are faulty is to take them out, get them to a Bosch Diesel Center and have them tested. When doing tie relearn procedure other things happen, to sum up:

- Injector code programming: programs the unique injector codes to the ECM, these codes resemble individual injector tolerances, these things work with insanely small tolerances which makes every difference count
- Pilot correction relearn, this lets the car idle through different RPM's teaching the car to compensate the normal wear and tear. This will not help anything if an injector is faulty.

1st Jun 2016 9:32am

tomdaprince

Member Since: 23 Feb 2015
Location: IJmuiden
Posts: 54

E.D. while your at it, you loosing coolant or oil by any chance? And is the coolant still clean clear pink? Blue smoke on startup? These Puma engine's are tough as hell, but when an issue occur's finding it can be a major undertaking.

1st Jun 2016 9:35am

enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

No smoke when starting up. It smoked somewhat blueish before the copper washers were replaced, but that's alleviated.

What I noticed is a faint wisp of vapour rising from the oil filling opening, when I take the lid of just after stopping the hot engine.

1st Jun 2016 12:14pm

tomdaprince

Member Since: 23 Feb 2015
Location: IJmuiden
Posts: 54

Ok, blue smoke would be a good indication of of a heavily leaking injector as thats what unburned looks like from the exhaust.

Stuff coming from oil filler is normal, just hot oil and some splatter from the camshafts.

I would start by having the injectors tested, replace VCV valve, make sure the injector seats in the engine are properly clean before refitting and follow the correct procedure reprogramming them.

While your at a diesel specialist for the injectors anyway, couldn't hurt having a compression test done either, would rule out valve stem seals and piston rings.

1st Jun 2016 12:44pm

enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

Thanks, tomdaprince,

I think this will be the best course of action. Just have to decide now whether to go to my Landy specialist or directly to a Bosch service, the latter is many miles closer.

Compression test is also a very good idea.

Thanks a lot everyone for chiming in and your good advice!

E.D.

1st Jun 2016 1:12pm

Fatboy Slim

Member Since: 04 Feb 2008
Location: Bridgend
Posts: 1006

Hate to say it but that sounds exactly like our 2.4s when we have cracked pistons.

have you pulled the breather pipe off the intake to see how much it's breathing when its running?

1st Jun 2016 4:56pm

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