 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Ashcroft MT-82 shaft fitted today |
 
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018   
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Tim - did you have to pay the dealer to do that and was it actually bone dry when pulled apart?
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26th Nov 2015 8:41am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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We have it from the horse's mouth that they should be:
I don't think we have had a definitive answer on that.
I think that would be the acid test. |
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26th Nov 2015 8:49am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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But is the wording you use truely accurate? "The MT82 6 speed gearbox fitted to the 2.2 and 2.4 TDCi is prone to the spline on the rear output shaft wearing which causes a total loss of drive, this spline 'frets' as it is dry in the same way the earlier LT77 and R380 mainshaft splines wear in the transfer case input gear, same thing, different spline." I read that imply that the ALL splines are dry and implicitly by design to be. That's not the case as we have a response from LR Engineering via the PR chap who confirms that it should be greased at manufacture. So the issue is one of quality control and i don't see how you can imply it's the same as the earlier issue you mention, which I believe was a design issue. If this spline is greased on manufacture would you still be recommending people put it apart and swap out for your kit? |
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26th Nov 2015 8:54am |
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| Tim_NZ Member Since: 05 May 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 177 
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No, it was a condition of sale, this is my 4th TDCi, the other 3 all had to be repaired under warranty for excess play in the intermediate shaft. I did however supply the grease - lithium based ep3 with molybdenum additive. The splines were bone dry when they pulled it apart. Cheers, Tim |
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26th Nov 2015 9:43am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17414 
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I think that there's a lot we haven't been (and will never be) told by LR on this. The coupling is designed without provision for any regular service lubrication and is sealed. There were no instructions regarding periodic maintenance in the WSM or Service Schedules, so I think it is reasonable to assume that the coupling was designed to be a "sealed for life" type of component. The fact that the coupling is sealed suggests to me that is was intended by the designer to be prelubricated. There are only two possible reasons for the seal - it is either to keep crud out of the joint, or to keep lubricant in the joint (or, I suppose, both). Since the shaft is contained in what amounts to a sealed housing between the two gearboxes (the only opening is a very small drain/vent slot in the bottom) there is no requirement for a seal to keep crud out, so the presence of the seal to muy mind indicates that the designer intended the coupling to be greased on assembly. So the issue then becomes one of production management, and clearly there has been a major drop-off somewhere along the line that has allowed these joints to be assembled without lubrication for the last 8 years with nobody noticing. Although we have Ryan's assurance that the joint is now lubricated, we don't actually have any evidence that this either is, or is not, happening (perhaps someone with a run-out edition would like to whip the transfer box out and have a look)! My feeling is that if the joint is assembled with adequate grease of an appropriate type, then it should last the life of a clutch (especially given the well-known appallingly short life-expectancy of the Puma clutch). I wouldn't ever conceive of changing the clutch without checking/greasing the coupling at the same time. I find it interesting however that two near identical vehicles can leave the factory at the same time, and one will last for fewer than 10k miles whilst the other may last 100k miles. It may be that this is because one isn't lubricated and one is, but when I stripped mine out at 150k miles or thereabouts there was no evidence of lubricant and no evidence of wear. That makes me think that there must be some kind of minor misalignment between the main and transfer boxes on some vehicles which causes some coupling to flex more than others. There shouldn't be any misalignment, of course, but that's not to say that there isn't. Some while ago I spoke to a friend who works for a main dealer, and he told me that they have replaced masses of these couplings under warranty or after warranty at the owners' expense. Whatever LR may say, it is clearly a fairly major problem with the product. I wonder what the total cost of warranty repairs is, and how it compares to the process change to ensure the coupling is greased on assembly. It would be interesting also to know is the 'powertrain' is assembled at Lode Lane or by a subcontractor, but again I doubt we'll ever know for sure. |
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26th Nov 2015 12:44pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8043  
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Supa Cat thats great, pick holes in a LR parts/upgrade supplier that make outstanding engineering products with one of (if not the) best customer services you will come across. that should keep them keen!  If your looking to pick holes why not ring them up?
as for taking LRs word for it, i ordered a new vehicle which for the MY should have a 4 pin diff front and rear. on stripping down the axle guess what - no 4pin diff. its on the build sheet though..... i find it hard to believe them when they say it will be lubed at assembly when they cant even fit the right parts.  Cheers
James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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26th Nov 2015 9:55pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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jst - perhaps it's because it is such a good supplier that I hold it to it's own high standards. I've bought a gearbox, a couple of standard diffs and a lsd off them over the years so I have supported them in the true commercial sense of the word and will probably do so again in the future. But that doesn't buy them any special privileges
 with regard to what I think may be an error in their wording.
They have posted on here so it's not inappropriate for me to do so also. Your argument to close down any critical or counter view is sad. I hope you can also see the irony in you having a pop at me for challenging one supplier and you hitting out hard at JLR - the prime supplier  |
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27th Nov 2015 11:27am |
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| Fifth Horseman Member Since: 08 Mar 2011 Location: Lanarkshire Posts: 323 
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Agreed, whist not such a drastic difference, my current (MY '11) Defender had the shaft fail at about 50K miles yet my old '07 one was still OK at around 85K when I sold it. This one had about 36K miles when I bought it whereas the '07 one I had from new. Strangely, the transmission on the old one always felt a bit loose, whereas this one felt a lot tighter. As I see it the causes (in rough order of likelihood) for these failures are probably a combination of the following: 1. Lubrication (or lack of) on assembly 2. Variations in materials quality. 3. Variations in machining tolerances of the parts involved 4. Misalignment between gearbox output shaft and transfer box input gear centres (Casing machining error or could even be caused by dirt between the adaptor housing and either gearbox or transfer box mating surfaces) 5. Variations in driving style (unlikely - although an easy excuse for JLR to use) In short its an assembly and materials issue, if out of warranty and the work is being done by a dealer try to get compensation from JLR. |
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27th Nov 2015 2:32pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8043
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SupaCat, i feel its an inappropriate way to address the issue on a public forum thats all. i didnt look to close anything down i merely suggested approaching them direct.
i posted a statement of fact about my own vehicle. Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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28th Nov 2015 7:26pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Fair enough
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28th Nov 2015 7:41pm |
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| dailysleaze Member Since: 23 May 2013 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 237
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On the factory tour it was mentioned that the engine, gearbox and transfer box arrive from the 3 manufacturers and are assembled on site. It could be that the adaptor shaft comes as part of this and each party assumed that the other would be greasing it.
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29th Nov 2015 1:05pm |
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| dgardel Member Since: 30 Nov 2008 Location: Veneto (Heart & Head) Posts: 3586 
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in my opinion, is the rust powder that creeps into the elastic ring slot. This one, now, isn't able to keep in the right position the shaft and it coming out. At this point, since less surface of grooves is working, they sags. Discovery 5 td6 HSE Stornoway Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition
IID Pro MV License |
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1st Jan 2016 12:45am |
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| kbf1981 Member Since: 22 Feb 2015 Location: Manchester Posts: 183
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How can you tell if they're going? What are the warning signs? And once those warning signs occur how long will it still continue to drive?
Is it worth getting the dealer to look at a 15 plate under warranty (7k miles now). We'll be doing a road trip through Europe this year with some off road bits. |
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2nd Jan 2016 11:10pm |
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| mark_d Member Since: 07 Sep 2013 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 266 
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Since buying mine at 12.5k miles (2.5 years old), it always had a bit of a clunk in it during gear changes that required a certain technique when changing gears.
Failure happened at 25070 miles (5 years old). I'm note sure when it appeared, but for quite some time there has been a rusty stain on the bottom of the extension housing between the gearbox and transfer box. This staining is the powdered rust that is created as the splines wear each other down. It comes out of the small drain hole on the extension housing, on the face that bolts to the gearbox. If you get this dust, the splines are wearing. http://defender90xs.blogspot.co.uk/ |
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3rd Jan 2016 9:03am |
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