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x-isle



Member Since: 26 May 2011
Location: Midlands
Posts: 1327

Wales 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Santorini Black
Personally, I find it funny and annoying that someone from the US puts his thoughts about emissions. Tar and brush springs to mind.

The fact is, control of emissions is here to stay and will get more stringent. That can only be a good thing in any country. Hopefully, it'll mean more advanced controls that don't cause owners hassle.

However, I still think that most of the "removers" don't remove them because they are broken, the remove them because they think that it's going to make such a huge difference that their sluggish Turbo Diesels suddenly have the power of the Diesel Le Mans cars.

I don't believe the laws around emissions controls are stupid at all. For those that don't agree with them, then they are not in place to protect you, they are there for everyone else.

....and I hope that the hassles of failing MOTs become more than the hassle of removing them in the first place.

I don't know what's happened to the folk on here lately. There does seem to be a lot of hot headed people stirring things up. Maybe it's down to them breathing their own dirty fumes from their decats?

It used to be a great place, lately, it's turned into the House of Commons. I guess there'll always be the split of opinion, personally, for me, people purposely modifying vehicles to knowingly increase emissions is an arrogant selfish attitude to the rest of the world.

You may all say; "....but it still passes the MOT". That's not the point. The MOT doesn't test emissions in the real world and it only has a benchmark figure. That figure isn't something to aim for, it's something to aim higher than. Craig Rogers

2007 Puma 110 XS
2011 Evoque Coupe Dynamic Lux
www.craigrogers.photography


Last edited by x-isle on 6th Feb 2014 9:13am. Edited 1 time in total
Post #305545 6th Feb 2014 9:11am
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mk1collector



Member Since: 17 Sep 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 6769

England 2004 Defender 110 Td5 CSW Bonatti Grey
@ borderterrier
Every persons idea of right and wrong is different! You have a different view to other people on here and as you say it's a discussion on an open forum, but there really is no need to ram it down our necks on every post Rolling Eyes
Post #305546 6th Feb 2014 9:13am
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RockJaw



Member Since: 15 Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 317

United States 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Santorini Black
K9F wrote:
Spooky,

You are not alone in not noticing anything. I don't have a 2.2 but reading below I don't think you have anything to unduly worry about....

Thumbs Up

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic22509....generation


Not sure whether this applies to UK models but from what I understand the light will only really come on when the computer senses a drop in pressure signalling the need to perform a DPF regeneration.

Soot build up occurs differently for different vehicles. Some vehicles are constantly under low revs and working hard all day - these will experience a high frequency of regeneration because of a rapid build up of particulates in the DPF.

Other vehicles which are used for long trips with less load will not build up soot and will not experience DPF regeneration for long intervals.

Nothing to be too concerned about, at least not if my understanding of it is accurate. ****CENSORED****
Post #305548 6th Feb 2014 9:28am
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x-isle



Member Since: 26 May 2011
Location: Midlands
Posts: 1327

Wales 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Santorini Black
The DPF just does it's thing without any driver feedback under normal conditions.

You need to be more worried if the light does come on.

The Defender DPF is a pretty clever box of tricks that is designed to regenerate at lower speeds than normal DPFs.

I don't know if this is correct, however, I think the DPF light has 2 stages. Orange means take it for a spin to help burn or Red which means it's a trip to the dealer. Craig Rogers

2007 Puma 110 XS
2011 Evoque Coupe Dynamic Lux
www.craigrogers.photography
Post #305549 6th Feb 2014 9:32am
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RockJaw



Member Since: 15 Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 317

United States 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Santorini Black
One Life - Live It!! ****CENSORED****

Last edited by RockJaw on 6th Feb 2014 10:27am. Edited 1 time in total
Post #305552 6th Feb 2014 9:42am
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RockJaw



Member Since: 15 Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 317

United States 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Santorini Black
x-isle wrote:
The DPF just does it's thing without any driver feedback under normal conditions.

You need to be more worried if the light does come on.

The Defender DPF is a pretty clever box of tricks that is designed to regenerate at lower speeds than normal DPFs.

I don't know if this is correct, however, I think the DPF light has 2 stages. Orange means take it for a spin to help burn or Red which means it's a trip to the dealer.


@ x-isle

Do you or anyone know what set of sensors triggers the red light?

The orange is a warning, as i understand, that a pressure drop or something has occurred and regeneration is either already in progress or that it is imminent.

Red? System too clogged up? Regeneration failed?

Immobiliser soon to kick in?

One of the remap guys would know the answer to this one.

Another important issue for me is whether the 2.2 also injects diesel during the exhaust stroke in order to facilitate DPF regeneration or other management function, this might explain some of the higher fuel consumption we all experience over the 2.4 Pumas. ****CENSORED****


Last edited by RockJaw on 6th Feb 2014 10:13am. Edited 1 time in total
Post #305556 6th Feb 2014 10:10am
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x-isle



Member Since: 26 May 2011
Location: Midlands
Posts: 1327

Wales 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Santorini Black
My understanding is;

Orange: It needs to regenerate but it's too full and needs more pressure to do so. A hard drive is required to activate the regeneration

Red: The DPF is overfull and regeneration cannot start in any driving conditions. I suspect the ECU will enter limp home mode. Craig Rogers

2007 Puma 110 XS
2011 Evoque Coupe Dynamic Lux
www.craigrogers.photography
Post #305557 6th Feb 2014 10:13am
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RockJaw



Member Since: 15 Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 317

United States 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Santorini Black
So it relies exclusively on the pressure sensors, which makes sense. ****CENSORED****
Post #305558 6th Feb 2014 10:14am
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x-isle



Member Since: 26 May 2011
Location: Midlands
Posts: 1327

Wales 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Santorini Black
Again, this is just my understanding, so could be wrong;

A DPF works on back pressure to determine it's "fullness", so yes, it would be pressure sensor(s). Craig Rogers

2007 Puma 110 XS
2011 Evoque Coupe Dynamic Lux
www.craigrogers.photography
Post #305560 6th Feb 2014 10:16am
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borderterrier



Member Since: 09 Dec 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1677

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Aintree Green
RockJaw wrote:
borderterrier wrote:

And finally, I shall resist the temptation, however tempting, to retort to your slights on my character, I suppose it was inevitable that you came into the argument (albeit a little late) but that's par for the course.


No, again you are wrong, I have stayed out of this blog despite your annoying lectures on morality.

My interest in following this thread has been strictly to source information form other members about their DPF, CAT and MoT experiences and your moralities have no bearing on any of these topics, yet you paste those moralities over us all quite thick

Other contributors to the blog have been attempting to share with us their own views of how they manage the issues pertaining MoT, DPF and CAT and with you whacking away at them incessantly the blog finally shut down - only THEN did I post my own point of view.

I am sure we would all like to hear other members' points of view now, yours is already well known, thanks for sharing them so liberally with us.


You are very welcome.
Post #305562 6th Feb 2014 10:21am
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Japseroony



Member Since: 02 Jan 2008
Location: North East England
Posts: 807

England 2016 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red
Just some thoughts and comments having just read this thread.

In order to buy a number plate for any vehicle you need to provide the V5, proof of address and also ID. So when someone sells one as a show number plate that is too small, has the incorrect lettering type or for any other reason is not legitimate and then the person that has bought it fits it to their car who is at fault Question

It’s the same for most aftermarket motorbike exhausts that say "not for road use" and then someone fitting it to their road bike - who is at fault Question

borderterrier, you seem to have taken a stance here but cannot justify why and especially when having a rant against Pete from BAS just because he added a Whistle after a comment he made. As Pete has said he has been asked as a tuner to modify a tune for a DFP off for a specific application - surely who he sells that too is up to him and the person that wants to buy it.

Also, have you asked Gary or Ian to comment on this Question I notice from posts on here that Gary specifically sells de-cats for TD5s and 2.4 TDCi to name 2, link here; http://www.alivetuning.com/alive-boutique/...uct_id=138 and Ian has a specific tune for a 2.2 TDCi that turns off the DPF and is for a de-cat car, link here; http://www.irbdevelopments.com/2.2%20Tuning.html and link here for the 2.4TDCi http://www.irbdevelopments.com/2.4%20Tuning.html

I do recall, but I can’t find the thread at this time, that Ian has specifically written a file 2.4 dedicated for a de-cat pipe and presumably the same for the 2.2 indicating this is a calibration change for road use and without a cat with the same for the 2.2 i.e. a dedicated tune for a car with no DPF, when Pete has never stated his tune is for a de-cat off or cat on as it’s up to the end user.

Finally, Pete does not and has not publically sold a de-cat exhaust for many years nor does he advertise them for sale anywhere, whereas the other 2 resident tuners specifically sell and advertise de-cat pipes both on their website and at shows – more importantly they claim a dedicated tune for a de-cat pipe and the latter for a car with DPF off.

I suggest you remove your head from up your and speak to those that in your words are “ irresponsible” and stop having a go at those that don’t currently promote such items for general use Thumbs Up Gas, Grass Or Ass - Nobody Rides For Free

"UNDERSTEER" ----is when you hit the fence with the front of the car.
"OVERSTEER" ------is when you hit the fence with the rear of the car.
"HORSEPOWER" ----is how fast you hit the fence.
"TORQUE" -----------is how far you take the fence with you.
Post #305606 6th Feb 2014 1:33pm
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Porny
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Member Since: 31 Aug 2009
Location: Sutton Coldfield - West Midlands
Posts: 809

 
Jasperoony wrote:

Just some thoughts and comments having just read this thread.

In order to buy a number plate for any vehicle you need to provide the V5, proof of address and also ID. So when someone sells one as a show number plate that is too small, has the incorrect lettering type or for any other reason is not legitimate and then the person that has bought it fits it to their car who is at fault Question

It’s the same for most aftermarket motorbike exhausts that say "not for road use" and then someone fitting it to their road bike - who is at fault Question

borderterrier, you seem to have taken a stance here but cannot justify why and especially when having a rant against Pete from BAS just because he added a Whistle after a comment he made. As Pete has said he has been asked as a tuner to modify a tune for a DFP off for a specific application - surely who he sells that too is up to him and the person that wants to buy it.

Also, have you asked Gary or Ian to comment on this Question I notice from posts on here that Gary specifically sells de-cats for TD5s and 2.4 TDCi to name 2, link here; http://www.alivetuning.com/alive-boutique/...uct_id=138 and Ian has a specific tune for a 2.2 TDCi that turns off the DPF and is for a de-cat car, link here; http://www.irbdevelopments.com/2.2%20Tuning.html and link here for the 2.4TDCi http://www.irbdevelopments.com/2.4%20Tuning.html

I do recall, but I can’t find the thread at this time, that Ian has specifically written a file 2.4 dedicated for a de-cat pipe and presumably the same for the 2.2 indicating this is a calibration change for road use and without a cat with the same for the 2.2 i.e. a dedicated tune for a car with no DPF, when Pete has never stated his tune is for a de-cat off or cat on as it’s up to the end user.

Finally, Pete does not and has not publically sold a de-cat exhaust for many years nor does he advertise them for sale anywhere, whereas the other 2 resident tuners specifically sell and advertise de-cat pipes both on their website and at shows – more importantly they claim a dedicated tune for a de-cat pipe and the latter for a car with DPF off.

I suggest you remove your head from up your and speak to those that in your words are “ irresponsible” and stop having a go at those that don’t currently promote such items for general use Thumbs Up



As per the links to my website...

For 2.2 Defender -

Option of DPF/ Catalytic Converter removal.

This is on option as determined by customer usage. We are not just talking UK markets, and not all Defenders end up in their designated markets. For example I have been involved converting a UK spec Defender to be shipped to a None EU5 market. If this wasn't done - the standard of fuel available would destroy the DPF. In this case the ECU was reflashed to make it into a EU4 spec with a None DPF. Nothing wrong with this.

If a customer required this for the UK they would be advised that it would be in contradiction of the original vehicles type approval - and advised that under the new MOT regulations it would be a failure. A disclaimer would have to be signed. And any supplied pipework would be stamped correctly with "“ILLEGAL TO SUPPLY FOR VEHICLES APPROVED TO EC REGULATION 715/2007.”

The exemptions to this would be if the engine was fitted in a older vehicle and thus it would not have to meet EU5 standards or a vehicle that had gone through the SVA/IVA process.

So, to cover all areas development work covers DPF and None DPF usage.


And although more relevant to the other DPF/CAT threads that are running at the moment...

Again, to cover all possibilities I have developed by CAT and none CAT calibrations for 2.4.

Why - because this is only proper way of doing it properly!

Removing the CAT changes the air path models, and more importantly changes the back pressure. There is no way that - done properly - you can have a one calibration fits all.

Customers will always be advised and will be given the option - all comes down to vehicle usage and customer requirements. Exhaust systems will be marked as required. With ref to the latest MOT requirements - they will be informed.


And MOT regulations are very different to Type Approvals....


Ian IRB
The home of the first modified Keswick Green 90 - and the first 2.4 Puma through both the 200bhp and 550Nm barriers.

www.IRBdevelopments.com

www.facebook.com/irbdevelopments

www.integrated316.com

www.facebook.com/integrated316
Post #305647 6th Feb 2014 5:36pm
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borderterrier



Member Since: 09 Dec 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1677

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Aintree Green
Ian that's clear. Thank you for answering. Out of interest do you record exhaust emissions during map development at all?
Post #305651 6th Feb 2014 5:46pm
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Porny
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Member Since: 31 Aug 2009
Location: Sutton Coldfield - West Midlands
Posts: 809

 
In terms of being MOT compliant for a smoke test yes.... (especially with regards to Tdci - fast pass for post 2008 is a much lower limit). Even my highly tuned 2.4 Tdci will pass without a problem.

A full emissions test over a EU2000 cylcle is very different... but something I might know a bit about.


Ian IRB
The home of the first modified Keswick Green 90 - and the first 2.4 Puma through both the 200bhp and 550Nm barriers.

www.IRBdevelopments.com

www.facebook.com/irbdevelopments

www.integrated316.com

www.facebook.com/integrated316
Post #305657 6th Feb 2014 5:54pm
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bell-auto-services



Member Since: 08 Jul 2007
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 2232

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Orkney Grey
borderterrier, Reply sent to the pm you sent me.


Pete
Post #305706 6th Feb 2014 8:16pm
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