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| Killer90 Site Sponsor Member Since: 09 Oct 2011 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 6478   
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that means your kitchen is illegal   CSK Automotive
www.cskautomotive.co.uk Like us on Facebook - www.facebook.com/csklr Follow us on Instagram - @cskautomotive |
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23rd Nov 2012 9:16pm |
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| mobilecentre Member Since: 05 Mar 2012 Location: Evesham Posts: 645
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Not wishing to send everyone to sleep - AGAIN!
But the figures quoted are raw lumens, so a halogen bulb that is 1500 lumens by the time you account for all the losses may only throw 300 lumens on the actual road. The LED is much more effeicent because of the optics direct light source (yawn etc) Rough rule of thumb is halogen 25 lumen per W LED 100 lumens per W |
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23rd Nov 2012 9:23pm |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2615 
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Four times as efficient. Twenty five times as expensive! Did I read of issues with depth perception with LEDs? Something to do with the RGB of the light or something? (LED lights £870, set of crystal halogens £35) |
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23rd Nov 2012 9:30pm |
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| mobilecentre Member Since: 05 Mar 2012 Location: Evesham Posts: 645
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I think this has been covered all ready in freedom of speech  |
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23rd Nov 2012 9:39pm |
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| bpman Member Since: 21 May 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 8069 
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So in summary:
(a) The EU Approved JWS 8700 LED headlights are currently except from mandatory self-leveling and washers because they are below the light level required for self-leveling and washers (this seems to be the light output difference between LED and HID). (b) I think we've covered the EU can't retrospectively change the law and enforce s/l and washers So it's just the H4 Lumens vs LED Lumens I can't find an explanation on here. I understand H4 filament bulb will draw more current than a JWS LED because of the LED efficiency. What I don't understand is if you have an H4 lamp with say 1300 lumens, where do they go if you only end up with 300 on the road ? Is this because the LED units focus the beam more accurately on the road and that say wipac crystal spreads the beam less efficiently ? |
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24th Nov 2012 10:23am |
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| mobilecentre Member Since: 05 Mar 2012 Location: Evesham Posts: 645
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Oh no what have you done now BP man
2000 lumens is the cut off for levelling and washing - there are HID lamps below this so do not need washing or levelling - que SteveG
The approval of the headlights was carried out under European & UK regs so complety meets hence why they are LEGAL and they carry a Britsih E mark. Incandescent use the power to heat a piece of metal (filament), the light is almost a by product, then coupled with a refelector so the light travels in one direction and then another all leads to losses. That's why when you drive down the road and look around you various things are lit up no where near the road - this is wasted light or comfort light as it it is around you but serves no real practical purpose. Comfort light is then confused with perception when talking about LED headlights. The LED is more efficient in the way it produces light (much less heat so less electrical power) and the light source is direct so focussed through an optic straight onto the road not refelected. The optcis also control the light so maximises it's usage and giving that sharp cut off and lack of comfort light as that previously wasted light is now on the road where you need it. Last edited by mobilecentre on 24th Nov 2012 10:42am. Edited 1 time in total |
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24th Nov 2012 10:34am |
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| mobilecentre Member Since: 05 Mar 2012 Location: Evesham Posts: 645
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To sumarise
JWS LED headlmaps are approved for use in the UK and Europe and all units supplied by us are E marked as such. This homolgation allows the retrofitting of the product in a Defender. No special exemption was required Washing and levelling is not required. |
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24th Nov 2012 10:41am |
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| bpman Member Since: 21 May 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 8069
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I understand, so the LEDs are more efficient in producing light, and focus the light where it is needed... simples  |
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24th Nov 2012 10:42am |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816 
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Almost scared to mix in this Babylonian confusing thread, but Tim, can you just clearly give us the facts of this 2000 lumens story which apparently is the benchmark output under which no self leveling and washing is required, irrespective if we talk about HID or LED.
So if that is the case, for instance, is it 2000 raw lumen or is it different (net lumen I presume (or better name??)) that is used for the approval? And what are the Speaker lumen specs, net as well as raw? Possible to recap us the facts for this? I think I have numerous times in threads seen info about lumen output, but still getting confused.... Tim, I also PM'd you to request copy of the Speaker Evolution approval documents which you said could provide. May come in handy one day, certainly here in Switzerland. When I received the box with the lamps from you, there was nothing as to paperwork from Speaker with technical specifications included, so for now, have nothing to support an eventual discussion at Swiss MOT time.... Tks, Eric You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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24th Nov 2012 10:51am |
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| mobilecentre Member Since: 05 Mar 2012 Location: Evesham Posts: 645
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Correct a cheap halogen lamp may be 15% efficient so from the original (raw) say 1500 lumens about 200 (effective)of them reach the road.
So with the LED headlight you start off with less raw lumens 1350 but because it is more efficient you end up with 760 effective lumens on the road, the argument then being you have around four times more light. This same process when applied to LED lamps becomes interesting as say JWS have about 40% losses between raw and effective where the cheap Chinese light bars uses more electrical power to create the light in the first place maybe then are much less efficient at transferring it to the road with again up to 90% losses. So for example a Rigid bar that is 10800 lumens could well be brighter than a Chinese 14400 lumen light bar |
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24th Nov 2012 10:52am |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816
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Our posts crossed. Would be nice to get the raw factual numbers and explanation, legal benchmark lumens, etc....
Then, one more thing which confuses me. The Speakers are said to be homologated under ECE R112 rules and regulations, which seems the same as for H4 headlamps, correct? How is one to know that? There is no ECE R112 printed anywhere on the headlamp. There just is the E11 marking with the circle around. Confusius reigns You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation.
http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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24th Nov 2012 10:58am |
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| mobilecentre Member Since: 05 Mar 2012 Location: Evesham Posts: 645
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OK so JWS LEDs are approved under R112 which was originally for filament lamps as that is all that existed back in the 1960's when Europe started writing the laws / approvals. This approval states a maximum luminous flux of 2000 which is RAW. So R112 can include LED lamps below this level which the Speaker lamps are. R112 has been amended to include LEDs even though the main document covers filament lamps. This menas your original H4 lamp is approved under R112 which is EXACTLY the same type approval that you LED headlamp has. So anyone or anywhere that accepts your original lamp HAS to accept your new lamp. SteveG argues that the UK RVLR says you cannot use LED headlamps, IF his arguemnt was correct you would also not be able to use the original lamps because as far as the law is concerned they are the same becuase of the approval category. By the way you already have your certficates |
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24th Nov 2012 10:59am |
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| mobilecentre Member Since: 05 Mar 2012 Location: Evesham Posts: 645
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Eric - read your approval certificate that you asked for |
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24th Nov 2012 10:59am |
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| mobilecentre Member Since: 05 Mar 2012 Location: Evesham Posts: 645
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Model 8700 Evolution 1350 raw 760 effective as of 1st May 2012. Yes the Speaker lamps are approved under R112 which is the same regulation your H4 7" are approved under. |
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24th Nov 2012 11:01am |
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