H1Tad wrote:

I hate to bring LR conversations back to my passion vehicle but I think the L663 situation is exactly what happened when the H2 was released by GM. The H1 guys baulked and said "thats not a real offroad heavy duty truck that can ford 60" of water! It doesn't even have beadlocks from the factory! *harumphharumphharumph*" - and we watched while the H2 (and H3) dominated sales and market share while we sat back and stewed in our animosity and utterly unjustified contempt.

Sure the H2 wasn't what we had wanted (the H1 Alpha was) but given the public's radical mood swings with regards to the H2, combined with hindsight, GM was entirely correct in the direction they went with it, and now they are welcomed in our littler Hummer community at events, trail rides, etc. On the used market, the H2's have actually rebounded (for good condition ones, which is tough).

Given how well the new Defender has performed in the market, I think LR knows it hit a home run with it. Whether or not an updated or more refined classic Rover/Defender would have outperformed it - we'll sadly never know. At least there's the Grenadier. (Dear Sir Ratcliffe, please respond to the daily letters I write to you asking you to resurrected the H1 like you did the classic Defender)

blackwolf wrote:

I think in many ways the concept of the new Defender most closely matches the concept of the original (first generation) Range Rover.

lightning wrote:

90 Dreamer wrote:

Disco 4 or 5 is a far nicer place to be.......supposed to be a Disco6 next year??

lt depends on what you mean by "far nicer"

LR Nuts wrote:

blackwolf wrote:

I think in many ways the concept of the new Defender most closely matches the concept of the original (first generation) Range Rover.

so you are telling us, the New Defender will go on to be a CLASSIC.

I have never heard of a classic Defender, ever. Maybe they are not worthy ?

Grenadier wrote:

... Where the classic Defender excelled, and indeed was almost unique at the time it was discontinued in 2016, was its ability to be modified, adapted, changed etc, to suit the purpose of any person, company or government. There are literally hundreds of variants, some DIY some built for purpose. No other vehicle maintained the ability to be adapted on the one hand into a special forces weapons platform, and then using the very same bare bones (chassis, engine, drive train, cab), be also turned into a cherry picker. Or an ambulance, or a utility truck, or a sewage pump, or etc etc. And what’s more, often supplied like that by LR or LRSV themselves.

The new Defender doesn’t offer any flexibility or adaptability at all. None. So the strongest suit of the <2016 Defender, that it could be anything to anybody, was ignored completely and instead replaced by yet another SUV, to add to the already 8 SUVs that JLR had in their stable. There is now no car on the market that offers what the classic Defender did in this regard (it waits to be seen if the Grenadier can offer it instead).
...

The perfect opportunity to repost the two photos below, noting that the first is from the days of leaf springs rather than coils.

The first photo was taken circa 1965 or 1966 and shows what is essentially one vehicle configured for no fewer than 27 clearly different, distinct, and very functional utility roles.

The second photo is the 2020 equivalent and shows eight "different" vehicles which are virtually indistinguishable from each other both in terms of appearance and function, and none of them could be used for more than perhaps two of the purposes shown in the earlier photo.

I'm not saying that the vehicles in either photo are better or worse that those in the other, this is just to emphasise the seismic shift in purpose. Where the Land-Rover was once the "world's most versatile vehicle", the Defender is now, in the words of the IPR owner, "an adventure brand".


Click image to enlarge



Click image to enlarge

blackwolf wrote:

I think in many ways the concept of the new Defender most closely matches the concept of the original (first generation) Range Rover.

LR Nuts wrote:

blackwolf wrote:

I think in many ways the concept of the new Defender most closely matches the concept of the original (first generation) Range Rover.

so you are telling us, the New Defender will go on to be a CLASSIC.

I have never heard of a classic Defender, ever. Maybe they are not worthy ?

Quote:

The new Defender has totally killed Disco 5 sales globally. And also impacted RRS sales, which are also down.

Quote:

Everyone talks about the classic Defender’s ability off road, as if that was its only purpose/strong point. And from there they say the ND is a worthy successor because the Defender is once again at the top of the pile or at least in the top 3 off roading vehicles.

Quote:

Where the classic Defender excelled, and indeed was almost unique at the time it was discontinued in 2016, was its ability to be modified, adapted, changed etc, to suit the purpose of any person, company or government.

Not too different from the H1. The volumes are different of course (Because the price of these models wasn't competitive), but the "civilian" version had a commercial line of trucks that were infinitely adaptable, from ambulances, to fire trucks, to excavators and bucket trucks (cherry pickers). That doesn't even get into the loads of demil'd HMMWV's that have been repurposed for law enforcement and other duties. The whole platform was designed from the onset to be a swiss army knife of capabilities. Still waiting on the Hawkeye howitzer to be delivered to my front door! (Yes we can order it and no, we don't need a license, only a large bank account). My friend Blake just sold a 1994 H1 (pictured) that lived its whole life as a firetruck, and he converted it to a little danty little offroader. My first H1 was restomodded by a shop in SoCal that worked on only H1's and Classic Defenders. They are truly the same vehicle with different accents.


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Quote:

That wholesale change is very different to the H1 to H2 development, which in essence was reproducing the look of the H1 in a smaller (still huge to us Europeans), more comfortable and more user-friendly variant than its enormous full on military older brother. Clearly you can no longer stick a .50cal or TOW on the back, but then the H1 was never designed to be bought and used by civilians, unless you’re Arnie.

It was the successor to the H1, which was NOT the military version (HMMWV). It was a civilian version, that was very much in line with the NAS Defender as far as creature comfortability. As for sticking .50cal on top, clearly you've not heard of Texas Serious, my friend Mark has a .50cal mount on the rollcage of his H1. The H1 (which is NOT the HMMWV) was definitely, from its onset, designed to be bought and driven by civilians. It was just very compromised in areas that the mass market didn't appreciate. In other words, exactly like the NAS Defenders.

As for no military or NGO's buying the New Defender - likewise with the H2. Nobody ever bought it for commercial or agricultural uses except for getting business advertising wraps put on. There was (and still is) a weird tax loophole over here if you buy a vehicle > 6000lbs GVRW you can deduct part of its cost off your business taxes so a lot of companies bought H2's for rolling advertisement billboards. I have seen the new Defender being used as an ambulance in New York City for what its worth.

The situations are more alike than you think - even the unceremonious dropping of the beloved original model at the expense of its seemingly "inferior" successor. At least from the US perspective - and especially the perspective of a H1 daily driver owner who also has a New Defender (and maybe soon a Grenadier or a classic Defender, the FJ is getting rusty)

Quote:

I just don't want to be seen driving in one! Laughing

Grenadier wrote:

H1Tad wrote:

I hate to bring LR conversations back to my passion vehicle but I think the L663 situation is exactly what happened when the H2 was released by GM. The H1 guys baulked and said "thats not a real offroad heavy duty truck that can ford 60" of water! It doesn't even have beadlocks from the factory! *harumphharumphharumph*" - and we watched while the H2 (and H3) dominated sales and market share while we sat back and stewed in our animosity and utterly unjustified contempt.

Sure the H2 wasn't what we had wanted (the H1 Alpha was) but given the public's radical mood swings with regards to the H2, combined with hindsight, GM was entirely correct in the direction they went with it, and now they are welcomed in our littler Hummer community at events, trail rides, etc. On the used market, the H2's have actually rebounded (for good condition ones, which is tough).

Given how well the new Defender has performed in the market, I think LR knows it hit a home run with it. Whether or not an updated or more refined classic Rover/Defender would have outperformed it - we'll sadly never know. At least there's the Grenadier. (Dear Sir Ratcliffe, please respond to the daily letters I write to you asking you to resurrected the H1 like you did the classic Defender)

There is a big difference between the evolution of the H1 to the H2 and the <2016 Defender to the ND.

Everyone talks about the classic Defender’s ability off road, as if that was its only purpose/strong point. And from there they say the ND is a worthy successor because the Defender is once again at the top of the pile or at least in the top 3 off roading vehicles.

But the Defender wasn’t purely about its off road abilities, if only because it wasn’t (and hadn’t for some while been) the best. A modern Range Rover or Disco 4 with ‘correct tyres’ would trounce a classic Defender.

Where the classic Defender excelled, and indeed was almost unique at the time it was discontinued in 2016, was its ability to be modified, adapted, changed etc, to suit the purpose of any person, company or government. There are literally hundreds of variants, some DIY some built for purpose. No other vehicle maintained the ability to be adapted on the one hand into a special forces weapons platform, and then using the very same bare bones (chassis, engine, drive train, cab), be also turned into a cherry picker. Or an ambulance, or a utility truck, or a sewage pump, or etc etc. And what’s more, often supplied like that by LR or LRSV themselves.

The new Defender doesn’t offer any flexibility or adaptability at all. None. So the strongest suit of the <2016 Defender, that it could be anything to anybody, was ignored completely and instead replaced by yet another SUV, to add to the already 8 SUVs that JLR had in their stable. There is now no car on the market that offers what the classic Defender did in this regard (it waits to be seen if the Grenadier can offer it instead).

That wholesale change is very different to the H1 to H2 development, which in essence was reproducing the look of the H1 in a smaller (still huge to us Europeans), more comfortable and more user-friendly variant than its enormous full on military older brother. Clearly you can no longer stick a .50cal or TOW on the back, but then the H1 was never designed to be bought and used by civilians, unless you’re Arnie.

But the modularity was in the classic Defender’s DNA from its very earliest years and was a vehicle that was targeted AT civilians. That it was taken up by the armed forces proved was a great platform it was. In effect the reverse to the evolution of the Hummer. Now there’s not a military, government, NGO, utility company, or police force in the world that will buy the ND. The classic and new Defender are, aside from being able to go off road, chalk and cheese. They maintain no common DNA.

blackwolf wrote:

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I'm told these vehicles are only of value ............................ If you have the cardboard boxes they came in.