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nickc

Member Since: 10 Jun 2016
Location: North London
Posts: 19

1995 Defender 110 200 Tdi CSW Epsom Green

Initial loss of power building up to shunting and stalling

Hi, I am at my wits end….

Back in August my 2007 110 2.4 tdci lost power and eventually stalled half way between Cornwall and London, I re-started it and it drove for a short while and it stalled again (a few times). I plugged a diagnostic tool in and I got a "P268B - High pressure fuel pump calibration not learned / programmed" message and then to cut a long story short the vehicle was recovered back home. I then did research on this forum and ended up replacing the rail pressure relief valve (which was in two parts i.e. it had popped) and the vcv. This appeared to fix the problem as the vehicle drove perfectly fine at first but then after about 2 miles and going up an hill it experienced the same problems (and came up with the same error code).

I then (driving it very gingerly) took it to a local independent Landy garage Aylmer (telling them it had a BAS remap on it) hoping they could perform a fuel pump re-learn. They re-replaced the rail pressure relief valve, rail sensor valve, fuel rail and vcv which did not sort the problem. It then transpired to do the pump relearn I needed to remove the BAS map (which the previous owner had installed) which involved buying the BAS2 RRC tool from BAS.

This morning with the help of Pete from BAS I removed the map and did the pump and pilot relearns hoping that would sort the problem. I took it out for a test run and at first all was fine but after about 5 miles when cruising at 60mph the engine started temporarily losing power and then picking up again, it then disappeared. I drove for bit longer and then it started doing it again and hunting, it eventually got to the point when it was completely cutting power/ ‘shunting’ and picking up again and it started stalling at junctions. I managed to bunny hop/ limp it back to the garage where a diagnostic tool came up with a new error “P1409 - EGR Vacuum Regulator Solenoid circuit (see P0403)”.

It’s strange and frustrating as it starts and drives fine until it seems it’s under load and then it is all down hill from there i.e. the problem starts & then escalates. And now to have a new error code re: the EGR is confusing.

Any help would be much appreciated…..

5th Oct 2024 2:31pm

andy63

Member Since: 30 Jun 2023
Location: north east
Posts: 513

Do you know or can you monitor your rail pressure while all this is happening...
It sounds fuel pump related to me but if your egr valve is sticking it would def cause running issues like loss of power..
I'd start with rail pressure and a leak off test on the injectors first..

5th Oct 2024 3:57pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20347

Probably EGR valve stuck open momentarily, that can throw out all sorts of readings, affect MAF clutch switch timing and things like that.

The nature of what you are experiencing does suggest VCV though.
How old is the fuel filter? $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R
🇬🇧🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪

5th Oct 2024 4:16pm

nickc

Member Since: 10 Jun 2016
Location: North London
Posts: 19

Thanks for the prompt responses - re: the fuel filter, I meant to say I also changed that with the prv and vcv.

Re: the rail pressure I think the BAS tool can do that - the challenge I have is the vehicle is at the garage so I can’t play around with it…l’ll suggest to them they check this though

5th Oct 2024 4:26pm

andy63

Member Since: 30 Jun 2023
Location: north east
Posts: 513

it can along with a few other sensor outputs that can be useful... but I would expect a garage scan tool to have as good capabilities anyway..
im not sure if you have reinstalled the map you mentioned, and im sure you did confirm with Peter what the map actually did and whether it prevents egr function ....the BAS tool will tell you whether the egr is been commanded or whether its shut..

5th Oct 2024 5:37pm

nickc

Member Since: 10 Jun 2016
Location: North London
Posts: 19

Hi, the map has not been reinstalled as yet, Peter’s advise was to ensure the vehicle is fully sorted/ fixed before reinstalling it. To be honest I am not sure what the original map did - the previous owner said that it was installed for improved economy as he did a lot of motorway miles.

5th Oct 2024 6:03pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20347

I think this is more likely VCV & PRV related, especially VCV, they are common to cause all sorts of problems even when new.

It’s not uncommon for a duff one out of the box, the EGR doesn’t really cause much problems expect MIL or if it’s stuck open.

Have you had any contaminated fuel, there was some with some in supermarket fuel not long ago, as water in diesel will cause a lot of problems, and kills VCV’s.

Blackwolf on here has described this before, and with mine in the past I feel I can vouch for exactly that, it occurred with mine after filling up at a certain fuel station.
And I think the coincidence is real, with VCV failure and fuel contamination. $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R
🇬🇧🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪

5th Oct 2024 6:29pm

andy63

Member Since: 30 Jun 2023
Location: north east
Posts: 513

I'm new to defenders compared to most on here and only really finding my way round the 2.2 I have..but there is a lot about failing vcv valves on thec2.4 as opposed to the 2.2..if it was only contaminated fuel /water I'm pretty sure that would have an equal effect on a 2.2 vcv..and the high pressure pump as well on either vehicle..
I was wondering if the low pressure transfare of fuel from tank to pump has more to do with it..could the vcv on the 2.4 suffer from lack of lubrication more often than the 2.2 which has an electric pump and primes the system well ..
Just thoughts and observations from the reading I've done..🤔🙃

5th Oct 2024 7:24pm

andy63

Member Since: 30 Jun 2023
Location: north east
Posts: 513

Obviously no other views on that🤔...or folk are just been kind and don't want to tell me I'm talking

.🤣

Anyway another question while it's on my mind..
Is the vcv valve on the 2.4 a normally open or closed valve..Reading I've done suggested that systems with a relief valve on the rail (which the 2.4 engine has) quite often employed a normally open valve... not sure why and can't find the article now...
I'm pretty sure the 2.2 valve would be normally closed and opens when powered..

6th Oct 2024 10:04am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17372

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Remember that the 2.4 and 2.2 VCVs are utterly different in every respect. It is highly likely that Ford re-engineered the valve after the problems with the 2.4.

The 2.4 VCV has always been a problem with the Ford applications of the engine too, it is not just a Land-Rover thing. The first time I went to buy my first replacement (I'm now on about number four or five now after 15 years and 276k miles) the parts man at my local Ford dealer knew the part number from memory because he sold so many of them. The last time he tried to sell me a 2.2 VCV, because that has now taken over as the best-seller.

My impression from how the 2.4 VCV behaves and especially how it behaves when it is failing is that it is a normally-restrictive valve controlled by a PWM signal from the ECM. I think we would hear of far more popped PRVs if it was normally-unrestrictive, and popped PRVs are relatively rare (although many seem to be replaced unnecessarily).

Andy63 wrote:
Obviously no other views on that...

To be fair you posted your question at 20:24 on a Saturday and are lamenting the lack of relies at 11:04 the following morning. That isn't a big window of opportunity for people long to reply!

6th Oct 2024 12:17pm

andy63

Member Since: 30 Jun 2023
Location: north east
Posts: 513

Ahhh..a watch is something I gave up using when I retired..and that's a fair while back😳..but yes now you mention it its not long for answers..
None the less thanks for yours👍

I only know a little about my vcv which is 2.2
I'm wondering what you mean when you say its vastly different to the 2.4 valve..
In design , or operation??
Mine is as far as I can tell a negative duty cycle valve, and the duty cycle between tick over and wot at no load only increases by about 10%..
That's from scope traces but I'm not sure that would be an effective way of diagnosing a mechanically sticking valve, and that's what I've been thinking about..mine is I'm assuming in good order and working well (and hope it stays like that😂) but would be good to test a known dodgy one..
Perhaps a current trace rather than duty cycle might be more meaningful..

6th Oct 2024 3:19pm

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