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BaCoNMX6

Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Thanks All,

Martin - Thats where I was hoping JLR would step in a actually confirm the difference (i.e. only the EU5 has a DPF) otherwise I am pointing to a product description on a website as evidence which is flimsy as best.

I am however fairly close to having written confirmation from JLR that this is indeed the case though so that will be one thing done.

However they are unwilling to comment on my question on whether a passive DPF system ever existed from factory - not surprising however annoying for my case and future discussion with the seller.

They are also unable to provide me a physical photo of each downpipe and since all the official manuals and online catalogues I find only show the EU5 version with all the additional plumbing that also makes it hard to state "the Downpipe on my car looks like this EU4 version" - so again just leaves a door open for creative defensiveness.

As hornet says I really have those three options infront of me:

1) attempt to retrofit the factory DPF system
2) fit a passive dpf unit - would require annual(?) cleaning if left in all year
3) downgrade to Euro4 classification

Now fortunately there is no tax evasion as far as i am aware since the way road tax works here is based on weight and fuel type for now.

There might have been something on initial import related to emissions however thats either the seller or the prior owners issue.

Having said that option 3 isnt a realistic option for me since where I live/travel there are plenty of restricted zones I would no longer be able to travel in.

Where I my head is at right now is to pressure the seller on option 1 however am holding off until I have enough, solid, reliable information to layout my case and supporting facts and request a discussion on next steps.

I am being careful however as i equally do not want to attract additional attention until I resolve the issue.

11th Jun 2023 3:23pm

Martin
Site Admin

Member Since: 02 Apr 2007
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 6605

2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red

Perhaps ask one of our Australian members, they have the EU4 non DPF 2.2 over there.

1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top

2015 D90 XS SW

11th Jun 2023 3:39pm

Porny
Site Sponsor

Member Since: 31 Aug 2009
Location: Sutton Coldfield - West Midlands
Posts: 809

I might be missing some of the story here, but until a few years ago I did work in Emissions Certification and compliance for JLR - and did quite a bit of vehicle component changes for Euro 4, 5, 6b etc.

It wouldn't be hard to retro fit all of the factory DPF system missing a EU4 Row 2.2

The CAN (casing) in the down pipe is same outer case for all versions, the difference is what is inside.

Eu5 has a DPF and a DOC brick as well as a pressure sensor tappings and temp.sensors.

An EU4 has DOC bricks only.and no.pressure or temp sensors. i have one in my workshop if.photos are needed.

Your only problem might be that even if we.made your Defender full EU5 spec, the VIN would still list as an EU4.
. IRB
The home of the first modified Keswick Green 90 - and the first 2.4 Puma through both the 200bhp and 550Nm barriers.

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www.facebook.com/integrated316

11th Jun 2023 8:40pm

hornet

Member Since: 04 Jan 2010
Location: Western Europe
Posts: 361

Porny, thanks for that. How much would you estimate the cost of the retrofit, i.e. hardware, labour time and a written seperate expert opinion?
That would be the amount in dispute with the seller.

It is a pity that the taxation is based on weight and fuel, because the most elegant solution would be to simply pay higher taxes and not have a problem with the DPF.

12th Jun 2023 11:49am

BaCoNMX6

Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Ha! never heard of paying higher taxes being an elegant solution!

If Europe wasn't slowly restricting diesel access to major city areas I wouldnt be bothered however the EU5 rating actually has utility and thats only going to increase!

@Porny - it would be great to know the rough items and costs as Hornet mentioned as thats essentially the discussion I need to be having (once I can, without doubt, convince the seller his belief that the car has a passive DPF system from factory is incorrect!)

15th Jun 2023 9:08am

TexasRover

Member Since: 24 Nov 2022
Location: Paris
Posts: 1043

2002 Defender 110 Td5 DCPU Chawton White

In Paris they ban any Diesel starting 01 July 2023, at least during weekdays. It is s matter of time for diesel with patrol having a bit more life and electric being the only long term safe bet.

Unless you live in the country side which is one of the reasons I completely avoid cities

15th Jun 2023 10:25am

MatLandy

Member Since: 11 Sep 2020
Location: Paris
Posts: 184

2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Zermatt Silver

TexasRover wrote:
In Paris they ban any Diesel starting 01 July 2023, at least during weekdays ...

From 1st July 2023 they were supposed to ban Euro 4 Diesel (Euro 3 and earlier are already banned), between 8am - 8pm in weekdays in Paris and greater Paris.
However, the officials are chickening out as usual since there are still many Euro 4 Diesel being used as daily driver in Paris, and at the same there is zero automatic control in place (via camera or other means). France being France, we like regulations and laws but lack the means to enforce them.

Anyway, the ban on Euro 4 Diesel will be pushed to then end of 2024 most likely, so my Puma 2.4 (Euro 4 Diesel) has an extra 18 months to wander freely in the capital

. Not that I have been worried though, my Defender is not my daily, it is however the vehicle of choice when escaping the city.

Those having a Puma 2.2 (which is a Euro 5 Diesel) have even more time in front of them

Sorry if above is a bit off topic, but just wanted to reassure anyone passing in Paris area in a Defender Puma, you can still do so happily, and wave accordingly

/Mat

Last edited by MatLandy on 16th Jun 2023 2:42pm. Edited 1 time in total

16th Jun 2023 8:33am

TexasRover

Member Since: 24 Nov 2022
Location: Paris
Posts: 1043

Hi MattLandy,

Yes, sorry you are correct. Supposedly on 01 July 2023 they will ban cars with crit'air sticker 3 and above so remaining is crit'air 1 and 2, with 2 including: Euro 4 petrol vehicles and Euro 5, 6 diesel vehicles. So it the diesel is not dead yet. Registered Classics are exempt.

Obviously this only applies from 8 to 8 on weekdays. The fine I believe is about Euro 75, IF you get caught, so quite palatable and if you ask me worth the risk. I presume you need to get caught actually driving the car, because if you can drive around in weekends and before and after 8 then surely you can park you car and that would be fine?

But as you say like so many things in France, it's all a bit academic.

16th Jun 2023 8:51am

BaCoNMX6

Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

And then in The Netherlands, UNLIKE France, the restricted areas are controlled by number plate recognition cameras so you are somewhat screwed! No idea on the fine but also wouldnt want to be doing that daily anyway as I suspect its 75eur or so!

16th Jun 2023 12:36pm

Julie

Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 479

2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green

BaCoNMX6 wrote:
Thanks All,

...

As hornet says I really have those three options infront of me:

1) attempt to retrofit the factory DPF system
2) fit a passive dpf unit - would require annual(?) cleaning if left in all year
3) downgrade to Euro4 classification

I am being careful however as i equally do not want to attract additional attention until I resolve the issue.

I still do not understand your pb, man.

You have a EURO4 car. Land Rover confirmed, too. So just modify the car's documents to EURO4.

If not possible, just ask the former owner to declare your car was being part of the items moved while immigrating from Russia, Australia or elsewhere to Germany. Both authorities should rectify their docs : D -> NL

That's all.

Last edited by Julie on 18th Jun 2023 8:05pm. Edited 1 time in total

18th Jun 2023 7:55pm

Julie

Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 479

BaCoNMX6 wrote:
And then in The Netherlands, UNLIKE France, the restricted areas are controlled by number plate recognition cameras so you are somewhat screwed! No idea on the fine but also wouldnt want to be doing that daily anyway as I suspect its 75eur or so!

And get yourself a proper daily commuter.

18th Jun 2023 8:00pm

BaCoNMX6

Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Downgrading the classification to Euro4 is not a reasonable option. And FWIW this is not my daily commuter.

One of the reasons for choosing the car in the first place (originally I had my eye on a TD5!) was due to living in a city where restrictions were already coming into force. And while it may not be forever the Euro5 still buys me a few years of allowed travel through those regions.

If thats where I am forced to end up then so-be-it however paying a premium for a newer, 'compliant' vehicle only to find this out wont make me throw in the towel that easy just yet!

19th Jun 2023 2:55pm

hornet

Member Since: 04 Jan 2010
Location: Western Europe
Posts: 361

I would be interested in the outcome of the story....problem solved and how?

9th Apr 2024 2:49pm

Julie

Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 479

^^ me too ^^

25th Oct 2024 5:44pm

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