↓ Advertise on Defender2 ↓

Home > Puma (Tdci) > Won’t rev from pull off in 1st.
Post Reply  Down to end
Page 2 of 3 <123>
Print this entire topic · 
custom90



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20294

United Kingdom 
Best way of checking the EA is with a helper, to Rev the engine (after up to temp after a run) and look for the proper correct throw of theEA movement, ensure the pivots are lubed also.

Regards, the clutch switch as mentioned already by pistonfields.
Only, you can do that with a 2 pole JPT connector and pins and just plug in to bridge it. With a small wire loop such as 2mm2 thinwall automotive cable.
You can’t however just disconnect it, it has to be bridged.
If you use the JPT connector you preserve the waterproofing and integrity of the standard loom, and can always be reversed, or replace the clutch switch itself as mentioned located on the clutch master cylinder.
It cuts torque slightly during gear changes, to cut down on transmission backlash or sudden shock loads on the trans, you can run with it bridged and then you are on driver input only so careful driving you’ll be fine, the clutch switch is fine also active just so long as it works correctly.
When it’s not working properly it can cause power cuts or surges, but a throttle assembly that’s not quite working as it should could also be a factor.

Regards testing the EA for the Turbo, the tuners would know best regarding those and the parameters applicable.
You can buy replacements, but is not a cheap item to just replace to see.

As it’s first gear, I’d tend to think it’s the EA as you have been looking at, MAP or MAF.
The clutch switch is worth checking for sure though, it seems the anti stall is working for you or it may need the Map looking at
Sometimes there is a flat spot pulling off in first, and that’s caused by the clutch switch cutting the torque, if you bridge it you can see an immediate change if any and if there isn’t any change it’s likely not to be that.
It should be a closed circuit, when the clutch pedal is pressed it momentarily opens the circuit, cutting torque by a percentage momentarily I believe something like 20% and then when the clutch pedal is brought back up the circuit is closed again and the torque increased.
It’s along those lines, when they fail the switch gets stuck open cutting torque, then sporadically comes back in causing a power surge and that’s linked with the fuelling system.
I think you get a little more MPG with it bridged, but my concern is it’s there to reduce drivetrain shocks.
I think it’s better without the clutch switch to drive, but when it’s working as it should I as mine now is it’s fine also. There is more power on tap with it bridged but I’m not so sure that’s so good for the clutch and drivetrain.
So I am open minded on that matter.

Does it do it more when cold or all the time? Sometimes perhaps the EA actuation gets weaker, tends to get a little sticky and when it should activate the turbo vanes has a momentary delay which it shouldn’t.
Old grease getting sticky maybe, I know when mine got stuck open once when hot cause limp mode but no MIL, it was simply that the EA pivots were dry as a bone and I think got hot and stuck.
Since I’ve periodically lubed them I’ve had no issue, I tend to do those the same kind of frequency as greasing the Prop UJs, only with the EA pivots with light oil instead.
LR do a particular type of high temp ceramic type grease for it, but if I remmebr it was something like £82 for 5ml. Shocked
Even then, I feel that it would likely get gummed up, the trouble is dust and detritus stick to the grease and gum it up, making it dry and higher viscosity over time making the EA work harder.

I’m not sure who makes then Electronic Actuators, the Turbos are Garret, but the EA a partner manufacturer. I have a feeling Hella springs to mind, possibly Denso, but more likely Hella.
Though generic new is still likely to be better than a failing old one.

There could be an error in the loaded map, but I doubt that is the case you never know.

Thumbs Up ⭐️⭐️God Bless the USA 🇬🇧🇺🇸 ⭐️⭐️
Post #1025830 24th Feb 2024 3:13pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
MK



Member Since: 28 Aug 2008
Location: Santiago
Posts: 2411

Chile 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Chawton White
One of many web pages

https://www.hella.com/techworld/ae/Technic...ng-61101/# Puma 110" SW

.............................................................
Earth first. Other planets later
Post #1025831 24th Feb 2024 3:16pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
custom90



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20294

United Kingdom 
Good find. Thumbs Up ⭐️⭐️God Bless the USA 🇬🇧🇺🇸 ⭐️⭐️
Post #1025833 24th Feb 2024 3:17pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
Timcat



Member Since: 20 Jul 2016
Location: Rugby at the moment
Posts: 1025

United Kingdom 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Indus Silver
custom90steve wrote:
Best way of checking the EA is with a helper, to Rev the engine (after up to temp after a run) and look for the proper correct throw of theEA movement, ensure the pivots are lubed also.

Regards, the clutch switch as mentioned already by pistonfields.
Only, you can do that with a 2 pole JPT connector and pins and just plug in to bridge it. With a small wire loop such as 2mm2 thinwall automotive cable.
You can’t however just disconnect it, it has to be bridged.
If you use the JPT connector you preserve the waterproofing and integrity of the standard loom, and can always be reversed, or replace the clutch switch itself as mentioned located on the clutch master cylinder.
It cuts torque slightly during gear changes, to cut down on transmission backlash or sudden shock loads on the trans, you can run with it bridged and then you are on driver input only so careful driving you’ll be fine, the clutch switch is fine also active just so long as it works correctly.
When it’s not working properly it can cause power cuts or surges, but a throttle assembly that’s not quite working as it should could also be a factor.

Regards testing the EA for the Turbo, the tuners would know best regarding those and the parameters applicable.
You can buy replacements, but is not a cheap item to just replace to see.

As it’s first gear, I’d tend to think it’s the EA as you have been looking at, MAP or MAF.
The clutch switch is worth checking for sure though, it seems the anti stall is working for you or it may need the Map looking at
Sometimes there is a flat spot pulling off in first, and that’s caused by the clutch switch cutting the torque, if you bridge it you can see an immediate change if any and if there isn’t any change it’s likely not to be that.
It should be a closed circuit, when the clutch pedal is pressed it momentarily opens the circuit, cutting torque by a percentage momentarily I believe something like 20% and then when the clutch pedal is brought back up the circuit is closed again and the torque increased.
It’s along those lines, when they fail the switch gets stuck open cutting torque, then sporadically comes back in causing a power surge and that’s linked with the fuelling system.
I think you get a little more MPG with it bridged, but my concern is it’s there to reduce drivetrain shocks.
I think it’s better without the clutch switch to drive, but when it’s working as it should I as mine now is it’s fine also. There is more power on tap with it bridged but I’m not so sure that’s so good for the clutch and drivetrain.
So I am open minded on that matter.

Does it do it more when cold or all the time? Sometimes perhaps the EA actuation gets weaker, tends to get a little sticky and when it should activate the turbo vanes has a momentary delay which it shouldn’t.
Old grease getting sticky maybe, I know when mine got stuck open once when hot cause limp mode but no MIL, it was simply that the EA pivots were dry as a bone and I think got hot and stuck.
Since I’ve periodically lubed them I’ve had no issue, I tend to do those the same kind of frequency as greasing the Prop UJs, only with the EA pivots with light oil instead.
LR do a particular type of high temp ceramic type grease for it, but if I remmebr it was something like £82 for 5ml. Shocked
Even then, I feel that it would likely get gummed up, the trouble is dust and detritus stick to the grease and gum it up, making it dry and higher viscosity over time making the EA work harder.

I’m not sure who makes then Electronic Actuators, the Turbos are Garret, but the EA a partner manufacturer. I have a feeling Hella springs to mind, possibly Denso, but more likely Hella.
Though generic new is still likely to be better than a failing old one.

There could be an error in the loaded map, but I doubt that is the case you never know.

Thumbs Up


Very detailed response thank you. I’m going to bridge the clutch switch & see what difference it makes can’t hurt to try. The connecting rod on the actuator was nice & free and as said the internal worm drive wasn’t damaged & looked in good condition.
The anti stall also works really well & we use it a lot on some of the more difficult mountain roads. Will report back when I’ve bridged the switch…thanks again Thumbs Up
Post #1025834 24th Feb 2024 3:44pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
custom90



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20294

United Kingdom 
Thumbs Up ⭐️⭐️God Bless the USA 🇬🇧🇺🇸 ⭐️⭐️
Post #1025839 24th Feb 2024 4:13pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
landy andy



Member Since: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Ware, Herts
Posts: 5663

2006 Defender 110 Td5 USW Zermatt Silver
Would this issue be altered/different if the ecu thought you were in high ratio, or low ratio?

ECU changing the map!!

Just thoughts as I don’t know much about the 2.2.
Post #1025850 24th Feb 2024 5:19pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
custom90



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20294

United Kingdom 
I’m not sure the 2.4 or 2.2 detects high and low selection does anyone know?
I know there is on the IPAC greyed out so to speak a symbol for something along these lines, but it doesn’t work on Pumas, only for diff lock, I’d imagine there is a light for Traction Control and ABS for those that have that equipped?
Mine does not have TC or ABS, so that is not applicable to mine but the diff lock indicator definitely does work.
Anti stall works in high and low, but there is no visual indication of that on the dash other than it does its thing by its self.

I’m sure that anti stall works in 1st high and 1st low, does it work in 2nd as well? I wouldn’t be too keen to try it but I’d imagine anti stall in 2nd low would possible work due to still lower gearing but not so sure about 2nd gear high.
1st gear low, on anti stall is nice for a Byway trundle, especially if it’s uphill and tricky terrain, locking the centre diff first before any areas of concern if needed.

Whenever I’ve noticed a little flat spot in 1st high, it’s usually in my opinion caused by the clutch switch cutting the torque slightly and typically extremely momentarily grinding up the torque in a nice smooth curve to prevent a shock load on the transmission.
Possibly, tuners can adjust the percentage parameter that the torque is cut by, but of course if the clutch switch is not operating as it should it all goes awry. ⭐️⭐️God Bless the USA 🇬🇧🇺🇸 ⭐️⭐️
Post #1025856 24th Feb 2024 5:58pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
landy andy



Member Since: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Ware, Herts
Posts: 5663

2006 Defender 110 Td5 USW Zermatt Silver
I know the Td5 has a difference map on high to low, with it dulling the acceleration on low, so you don’t kangaroo on the lumpy stuff. That was my thinking.
Post #1025859 24th Feb 2024 6:25pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3407

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
Same. On Low gear, the accelerator response is slower on a 2.2. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #1025861 24th Feb 2024 6:42pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
Timcat



Member Since: 20 Jul 2016
Location: Rugby at the moment
Posts: 1025

United Kingdom 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Indus Silver
Thought I’d update this for anyone who has been pulling their hair out with a similar problem. Tried bridging the anti stall to no avail.
Coming into Dar ( Tanzania) found a local independent garage guy who knows his onions, after talking about what’s been done in the past out come the diagnostic gear & a plan was formed….. I give you the culprit.




Click image to enlarge


Yup fly by wire throttle pedal wasn’t giving the correct reading & thus cutting power massively. He had a puma in the yard which he stripped the pedal off & hey presto!! Thanks again to all those who have taken time to reply to this post.
Post #1030529 4th Apr 2024 7:06pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
custom90



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20294

United Kingdom 
That’s very interesting, and good to see that you’ve zeroed in on it and that it’s fixed.
Thumbs Up ⭐️⭐️God Bless the USA 🇬🇧🇺🇸 ⭐️⭐️
Post #1030530 4th Apr 2024 7:11pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17338

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
Unusual for the TPS not to produce DTCs, but glad you're sorted.

As an aside, on the TDCi Defenders the anti-stall essentially works in all gears both high and low and forward and reverse. The idle jack only works in 1st low and for this to happen the ECM has to be able to determine both that the t-box is in low range and that 1st gear is selected. The H/L switch on the LT230 indicates to the ECM whether high or low range is selected (and is used to select the appropriate TPS response map accordingly) however since there is no detection on the MT82 main gear selector gate it has to extrapolate that 1st gear is selected from the engine and road speeds.

[This post has been edited since originally it contained a disturbing degree of technical inaccuracy Sad which I can't explain Surprised and for which I apologise Very Happy . I think my brain must have been briefly possessed by a moron!]


Last edited by blackwolf on 5th Apr 2024 7:37am. Edited 1 time in total
Post #1030564 4th Apr 2024 9:48pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
andy63



Member Since: 30 Jun 2023
Location: north east
Posts: 511

United Kingdom 
Hi.. I reading the comments by custom and bw and it's prompted a few thoughts and a question..
I have the 2.2tdci.registeted Dec 2014 but the vin plate has it as a 2015 model..
It has a light on the dash for diff lock operation, and I'm fairly sure there is a switch for high low ratio but I've never seen a light associated with that switch..
Is that normal on that model..
I didn't know about using different maps, so if you have it remapped how would that effect the two map strategy for high low ratio selection
Thanks for any feedback👍
Post #1030577 5th Apr 2024 6:42am
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
Nino4x4



Member Since: 09 Apr 2019
Location: Madrid
Posts: 13

Spain 
The ECU not only detects high/low speeds but also at what speed, it has maps for each speed.

You can check the clutch switch if it works and it is with the vehicle stopped and pressing the clutch it does not go up more than 3500rpm
Post #1030579 5th Apr 2024 6:54am
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Send e-mail Reply with quote
blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17338

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
Upon rereading my yesterday post (above) I realised to my shame that it contained significant errors of fact which I now struggle to explain. I have therefore edited it accordingly and it is now correct to the best of my knowledge. The corrected post is quoted below.

blackwolf wrote:
...on the TDCi Defenders the anti-stall essentially works in all gears both high and low and forward and reverse. The idle jack only works in 1st low and for this to happen the ECM has to be able to determine both that the t-box is in low range and that 1st gear is selected. The H/L switch on the LT230 indicates to the ECM whether high or low range is selected (and is used to select the appropriate TPS response map accordingly) however since there is no detection on the MT82 main gear selector gate it has to extrapolate that 1st gear is selected from the engine and road speeds.
Post #1030585 5th Apr 2024 7:40am
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
Post Reply  Back to top
Page 2 of 3 <123>
All times are GMT

Jump to  
Previous Topic | Next Topic >
Posting Rules
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



Site Copyright © 2006-2024 Futuranet Ltd & Martin Lewis
DEFENDER2.NET RSS Feed - All Forums