Newbie wrote:

I'm afraid I cannibalized the sockets and just retained the white plastic housings. So the old housings are mounted as before and the new lights are mounted to them. The incandescent sockets were removed in order to do this.

Newbie wrote:

... To start, my brake lights work, but my running (side and tail) lights don't. My fuses are good. When I started changing over my lights from incandescent to LED, I started at the front and worked my way to the rear. With the factory relay in place, I was able to confirm that the new front running (side) lights were working when the headlights were on. I checked these lights again when I replaced the rear turn signals and they were still working. After installing the new brake/tail lights, however, the front running lights were no longer working and neither were the tail lights (apart from working as brake lights). I thought it may have been an issue caused by the original relay so I installed the new, LED-style relay, but it made no difference.

I've since learned from blackwolf that running lights are not impacted by relays, so I figured I must have wired the tail lights incorrectly. I'm not that versed with a multimeter, so I went through the four combinations of red-black-green connections and still have nothing. So if this is a polarity issue, I think I've checked every wiring permutation. And my fuses are still good.
...

Newbie wrote:

... I'm afraid I cannibalized the sockets and just retained the white plastic housings. So the old housings are mounted as before and the new lights are mounted to them. The incandescent sockets were removed in order to do this....

Newbie wrote:

1) First off, thank you for your continued help with this situation. I believe I follow what you are saying about the piggyback loom. And I certainly understand what you are saying about rigging something from the headlight. So would you say that the power and ground from each headlight would technically take care of the side lights and tail lights on that side of the vehicle? So left handles left and right handles right?

2) And do you think the headlights would power these lights in the dipped (running light) setting without actually having to turn the headlights on? (I hope that question makes sense.)

Thanks again!

1) Yes, correct as the current draw is lower by far for LED’s so that circuit can power both safely as the current is significantly less, which is something that wouldn’t be possible with incandescent.

2) Yes, it will turn them on, on sidelight (running light) and dipped basically all the time any form of exterior lighting is required.
I would imagine If I Recall Correctly, this will also energise the tail light circuit also, whenever sidelight or dipped is turned on.

This MAY be the issue you have, on mine I was able to fit a plug and play in-line loom due to the headlights I have Nolden Gen 1.
However, to get around that you may need some male and female (can I get away with saying that that? )
Headlight plus and sockets, and make a small plug in loom to take power and ground up to the sidelights, whist also still providing power for the headlights.

As the front sidelights (upper ones) are on the same circuit as the tail, it should solve the tail lights also.
You seem to have the flashers / indicators and the relay for that sorted now as that’s separate anyway.
And you seem to have brake lights as required also.

The connections are Econoseal connectors, on most later years of which those lights in your link are 2-pole econoseals. So I’ve you have plugged them straight into the LR plugs there shouldn’t be an issue, but if not there maybe. But if they just plugged in that should be fine.

If you go on 4x4 Overlander and take a look at Nolden Gen 1, you’ll see that Pilot light is an option, and there is a piggyback loom also for it.
If the headlights don’t have this plug and play functionality, then you’ll need a workaround as I detailed above.
But the jist is, power needs taking up in parallel each side from the headlight plugs up to the sidelights whilst also going to the headlights.
You could take taps from the existing lives and ground, or fit a small loom in between to do that so the factory wiring isn’t touched. I’d probably do the latter.

I think that on mine it was the reverse where power from the sidelight is taken down to the headlight to provide a sidelight in the headlights aka the optional pilot light.
I’m thinking this maybe a workaround for you.
It should at least give you tail lights and side along with dipped, but not specifically sidelight running light only.
Besides this I can only think of it being the rear loom ground, the two eyes for that on the transfer box side being loose.
Ground issues can cause a lot of problems and bizarre results, if the ground is not low impedance and poor security / loose then you’ll have severe voltage drop or nearly no power at all. Possibly have power to other ground circuits as well.

I once had the main ground loose, not fitted by me. Started fine got out on the roads and all lights were out and the indicators or flashers fir example would light up the entire dash flashing.
Good job I was only around 1/4 mile from home.
Tightened up the ground lead, job done. $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R
🇬🇧🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪

kestrel wrote:

Hi Jim

Newbie wrote:

I'm afraid I cannibalized the sockets and just retained the white plastic housings. So the old housings are mounted as before and the new lights are mounted to them. The incandescent sockets were removed in order to do this.

I don't understand why you had to cannabalize the sockets when I'm reading the description on Amazon:

Suitable for all 1990-2016 Defender,plug and play.

Could you post a picture of the sockets? That may shade some light on it 😉

Cheers....Toby

Thanks for writing, Toby. Perhaps because I have 1988 (pre-Defender), I did not have a male/female "plug style" connection that I could use. The sockets for the incandescent bulbs were mounted in the white, plastic housings (pictured), and they were wired to the car's wiring with bullet connectors. So I had to snip off the plugs that came with my lights and wire everything together with crimp connectors. When I was unsuccessful getting my running lights back (and after I learned the signal relay has nothing to do with my running lights), I assumed that I had wired my tail lights incorrectly and that was why the entire running light circuit - fronts and rears - was out. I went on to try every combination of red-green-black wiring and continued to check my fuses, but no luck.


Click image to enlarge


Click image to enlarge

blackwolf wrote:

Newbie wrote:

... To start, my brake lights work, but my running (side and tail) lights don't. My fuses are good. When I started changing over my lights from incandescent to LED, I started at the front and worked my way to the rear. With the factory relay in place, I was able to confirm that the new front running (side) lights were working when the headlights were on. I checked these lights again when I replaced the rear turn signals and they were still working. After installing the new brake/tail lights, however, the front running lights were no longer working and neither were the tail lights (apart from working as brake lights). I thought it may have been an issue caused by the original relay so I installed the new, LED-style relay, but it made no difference.

I've since learned from blackwolf that running lights are not impacted by relays, so I figured I must have wired the tail lights incorrectly. I'm not that versed with a multimeter, so I went through the four combinations of red-black-green connections and still have nothing. So if this is a polarity issue, I think I've checked every wiring permutation. And my fuses are still good.
...

If I understand your narrative correctly, everything was going well until you fitted the rear brake/tail lights. Until that point, your indicators worked (with the old relay), your front side (what you call "running") lights worked, and your old brake and tail lights worked. You then fitted the new rear brake/tail lights, and the front side lights stopped working. You then changed the flasher relay and it made no difference to the side/tail/brake lights (and indeed why would it given that there is no connection whatsoever between the two circuits).

That is EXACTLY what happened.


If this sumary is correct, it is evident that there is nothing wrong with the flasher circuits or light units, and there is, or at least was, nothing wrong with the front side lights. Look to the brake/tail lights for the problem.

Give that the old lights worked correctly, it is safe to assume that there is nothing wrong with the wiring on the vehicle, unless you have blown a fuse (possible) or there has been a coincidental failure of something else (possible but unlikely).

Newbie wrote:

... I'm afraid I cannibalized the sockets and just retained the white plastic housings. So the old housings are mounted as before and the new lights are mounted to them. The incandescent sockets were removed in order to do this....

I don't quite understand what you are getting at here. THe lights you have pruchased are supposedly plug and play and clearly have Econoseal connectors which should plug straight into the vehicle harness in place of the old light units. They certainly would on a TD5 or Puma era Defender. I note however that you have a 1988 2.5TD Defender, which may have different connectors so I am now wondering what you have done to hook the lights up and whether this is the source of the problem. The only thing I can think of that might be described as a "white plastic housing" is the bulb holder itself. Can you explain in more detail, ideally with a photo or two, how you have actually connected them?


I stopped short of removing the bulb holder (a much better name, thank you) for the pictures I included in my most recent post, but can when the weather improves. You'd see, though, that the black-green-red wires from the fixture are crimped and heat sealed to the black-green-red wires which formerly fed the lamp socket. I've tried the four combinations these wires can be connected and still no joy. I believe I have been able to determine, though, that black, for me, is ground/earth. My brake lights are working and my fuses are good.


In the meantime I would suggest that you disconnect the rear (tail/stop) lights completely from the vehicle (just leave the vehicle wires disconnected and not touching anything) and see what then works. From what you have said I would expect the indicators and front side lights to work. If they don't, check whether you have the panel lights on the dash working, and check the fuses. Usually the sidelights on each side of the vehicle are fused separately, one side also powering the dash lights, so there will probably be two fuses.


I can certainly do this, though the indicators have been working through all of this. (That said, I've noticed a bit of bleed-through where the driver side indicator flashes faintly when the passenger side indicator is on. The same happens with the dash indicator. This seems to be a new issue, but am hopeful that the newly-arrived RDX relay may assist with this.)


If we can pin down the problem to the light units or to the way you have connected them, we should be able to guide you out of the mess!

For now forget the flasher unit, it isn't relevant to your problem if you have accurately described the situation. Forget jumpers to the headlights etc., irrelevant and unnecessary. Personally I'd also forget the Haynes manual since unless they have improved hugely in the last few years they're really not worth the (recycled) paper they're printed on, you should be able to find online and download the genuine LR manuals for the vehicle since almost all WSM and electrical manuals are now in the public domain. 40 or 50 years ago Haynes manuals were excellent, but they have dumbed them down so much now that they really aren't worth bothering with in my opinion (unless you want to be told repeated that this is a difficult and complex task requiring special tools and should be left to a professional).


Who knows; I may not need special tools, but a professional may be in my future!


Here's a link to a genuine WSM which includes wiring diagrams for the 2.5TD Defender of about your era, unfortunately it's not a great scan but it is usable:

http://www.retroanaconda.com/landrover/man...1993ed.pdf

Newbie wrote:

Thanks for writing, Toby. Perhaps because I have 1988 (pre-Defender), I did not have a male/female "plug style" connection that I could use. The sockets for the incandescent bulbs were mounted in the white, plastic housings (pictured), and they were wired to the car's wiring with bullet connectors. So I had to snip off the plugs that came with my lights and wire everything together with crimp connectors. When I was unsuccessful getting my running lights back (and after I learned the signal relay has nothing to do with my running lights), I assumed that I had wired my tail lights incorrectly and that was why the entire running light circuit - fronts and rears - was out. I went on to try every combination of red-green-black wiring and continued to check my fuses, but no luck.

Hi Jim

I don't have any experience with old Land Rovers but a bit with another british car (Triumph TR6)

In another post you wrote that you have checked the fuses and determined that the black wire is ground.

How did you do that? Have you used a multimeter? If not, I recommend to use a multimeter. You could also use the multimeter to check if you have power at the light.

Good luck...Toby