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Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6318

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey

one for the pipe welders out there

I may have to resort to some sketches.......actually my sketches might confuse matters

so imagine a straight 3" steel pipe rising through a building within the service duct / riser. Imagine its a single length of pipe top to bottom.
now imagine we want to introduce a flanged joint halfway up.
sounds simple - cut a small section out and introduce a couple of slip flange plates to be welded in place.....
problem being is the pipe is mounted just in front of the rear wall, not so close to that the flanges won't fit but too close to weld all the way around

my question is this;

when welding the plates it would be normal practice to weld the side of the flange thats opposite to the joint ie where the bolt head (or nuts) would be located. to alleviate the issue of access could the flange plate be welded on the opposite side - ie where the gasket would be located?

there's probably an obvious reason why not but I just can't see it?

16th Aug 2022 1:52pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6318

been doing some digging.
it would 'appear' what I need is a 'socket weld flange' ?
I think this is welded just on the inside face of the joint?

anyone familiar with this and can confirm its welded just on the one side?

16th Aug 2022 2:13pm

bear100

Member Since: 22 Mar 2010
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1953

2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Santorini Black

You can’t get away with welding for water pipes by using Mega Press great gear and a game changer! 2023 Defender L663 V8
2016 Range Rover Autobiography 4.4 TDV8 (gone)
2010 110 XS Utility 2.4TDCI
2010 Range Rover Sport TDV8 (gone)
2007 Discovery HSE TDV6 (gone)
1993 110 csw 200 tdi (gone)
1994 90 HT 300 tdi (gone)
1994 discovery 300tdi (gone)
90 hybrid 3.5 v8 (gone)
Range rover bobtail 3.5 v8 (gone)

16th Aug 2022 2:59pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6318

thanks. are you referring to the Geberet Mapress fittings?

if so I don't think you can connect to an existing 3" heavy steel pipe?

16th Aug 2022 3:08pm

RFT

Member Since: 13 Nov 2010
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 685

2010 Defender 130 Puma 2.4 HCPU Zermatt Silver

Caterham, if you are having to ask the above question, please don't proceed down the welded flange router. Look for a cold work method.

There are quite a few "cold work" technologies available to join pipes, such as:

https://www.lokring.com

and Geberit I think they work with 3" pipe, link to technical data below.

https://catalog.geberit.co.uk/en-GB/Geberi...32670.html 130 Puma HCPU with an Artica 240LR Demountable Camper

16th Aug 2022 3:42pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6318

don't worry I won't doing any welding.....at times I do know my own limits.

just trying to find a solution for a problem - I'll take a look at the links. thank you.

16th Aug 2022 3:44pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6318

thanks RFT.
that lokring solution looks the solution. don't suppose for a moment it isn't incredibly expensive - I'll be getting in touch with them to see if they have any 'regular' installers with the necessary installation tools.

I'll check with Mapress also but not sure if they're kit will press onto heavy gauge steel or just their own steel pipe?
And I'm not sure that there's sufficient access for the Mapress tool. The lokring tool is just front facing.

thanks again.

16th Aug 2022 3:59pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17598

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

A couple of important details you haven't given are what is in the pipe and what's the operating pressure?

Hopefully not cyclohexane or similar.

Last edited by blackwolf on 17th Aug 2022 10:33am. Edited 1 time in total

16th Aug 2022 7:19pm

The Zee

Member Since: 26 May 2019
Location: Salisbury
Posts: 290

2014 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Indus Silver

Also what's the wall thickness of the tube/pipe?

I've used Swagelok fittings for small tube work in copper, teflon and stainless. Easy to fit, gaugeable, and can be refitted a number of times. https://www.swagelok.com/ (8 suppliers/centers in the UK & Ireland) Zaid-M
www.DefencePhotos.com
2014 Defender 110 Utility, 2.2 Puma, Indus Silver
Not just transport more like a religion

16th Aug 2022 9:00pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6318

blackwolf wrote:
A couple of important details you haven't given are what is in the pipe and what's the operating pressure?

Hopefully not cyclohexane or similar.

its a 3" heavy steel heating pipe (LTHW) running at circa 3.5 Bar.

17th Aug 2022 2:38pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6318

The Zee wrote:
Also what's the wall thickness of the tube/pipe?

I've used Swagelok fittings for small tube work in copper, teflon and stainless. Easy to fit, gaugeable, and can be refitted a number of times. https://www.swagelok.com/ (8 suppliers/centers in the UK & Ireland)

thank you for the suggestion but don't think they're suitable in this instance.

17th Aug 2022 2:42pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17598

Caterham wrote:
blackwolf wrote:
A couple of important details you haven't given are what is in the pipe and what's the operating pressure?

Hopefully not cyclohexane or similar.

its a 3" heavy steel heating pipe (LTHW) running at circa 3.5 Bar.

Does that make it a pressure vessel and subject to the pressure vessels regulations? If so you'll need an approved scheme of work, CofCs and a coded welder.

17th Aug 2022 3:18pm

bear100

Member Since: 22 Mar 2010
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1953

Sorry for delay currently in expedition

https://www.viega.com/content/dam/viega/ae...nt_net.pdf

It’s for mild steel which is great unless you need it for steam which heavy iron is used.
Honestly a big game a changer many hours saved, no hot works, H&S wise so much easier etc.
you can hire a gun and set of jaws for under £100 a week

I use or have used pretty much every pipe jointing method out there and this is a must if it meats the right criteria which in most cases does 2023 Defender L663 V8
2016 Range Rover Autobiography 4.4 TDV8 (gone)
2010 110 XS Utility 2.4TDCI
2010 Range Rover Sport TDV8 (gone)
2007 Discovery HSE TDV6 (gone)
1993 110 csw 200 tdi (gone)
1994 90 HT 300 tdi (gone)
1994 discovery 300tdi (gone)
90 hybrid 3.5 v8 (gone)
Range rover bobtail 3.5 v8 (gone)

17th Aug 2022 4:27pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6318

blackwolf wrote:
Caterham wrote:
blackwolf wrote:
A couple of important details you haven't given are what is in the pipe and what's the operating pressure?

Hopefully not cyclohexane or similar.

its a 3" heavy steel heating pipe (LTHW) running at circa 3.5 Bar.

Does that make it a pressure vessel and subject to the pressure vessels regulations? If so you'll need an approved scheme of work, CofCs and a coded welder.

I certain see your perspective on the above. the system is a closed system c/w expansion vessel and high pressure safety valves. in terms of the pipework, while it does form a part of the overall system I'm not aware of it needing to be completed by a coded welder etc etc - I say that only because I'm aware of numerous similar scenarios where this doesn't take place / hasn't taken place. Yes the installation is typically pressure tested to say 1.5 x working pressure and safety valves rated accordingly. BUT - you've raised a very interesting / valid point. All these installations I've 'witnessed' I do wonder whether in nearly every case they've not been completed to the letter of the law?
For example while I appreciate for someone to install an unvented water cylinder in your house they should be suitably qualified to work on pressure systems but if someone came along to replace a radiator in your house which is again on an unvented system I wouldn't expect them to have to be qualified to work on pressure systems?????

thank you for raising an interesting point?

17th Aug 2022 5:23pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6318

bear100 wrote:
Sorry for delay currently in expedition

https://www.viega.com/content/dam/viega/ae...nt_net.pdf

It’s for mild steel which is great unless you need it for steam which heavy iron is used.
Honestly a big game a changer many hours saved, no hot works, H&S wise so much easier etc.
you can hire a gun and set of jaws for under £100 a week

I use or have used pretty much every pipe jointing method out there and this is a must if it meats the right criteria which in most cases does

Brilliant - thank you. this looks like the answer

17th Aug 2022 5:29pm

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