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redline



Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Mountains and Lakes
Posts: 221
Switzerland 
All-right ... more tests:

1. Coil side voltage measured across both pins (85 and 86) of starter relay is 7.2V
2. Voltage measured across pin 86 of starter relay and body ground is 12V
3. When the relay is activated manually, the car cranks, but does not start.

All three tests with key fully turned to "Start" position.

The conclusion is - I assume - that the immobiliser is reducing the starter relay voltage to 7V (why not 0V though..?!) as well as inhibiting start through the ECM (fuel or some other parameter).

Last edited by redline on 7th Dec 2018 1:57pm. Edited 1 time in total
Post #744481 7th Dec 2018 1:11pm
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dorsetsmith



Member Since: 30 Oct 2011
Location: South West
Posts: 4554
All-right ... more tests: but you fond out allot Exclamation


Immobiliser inhibiting start through the ECM (fuel or some other parameter). yes
Post #744484 7th Dec 2018 1:40pm
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redline



Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Mountains and Lakes
Posts: 221
Switzerland 
Hi Dorset. Yes it looks like the problem is the immobiliser. Many thanks to you (and Martin) for guiding me through this.

Thanks also for the link to TechnoZen... I will contact them to explain, and see if they can fix the problem, unless you (or others) know of any other way to re-set the immobilizer.

Also, I would like to find a permanent fix to avoid this kind of issue in the future. I think it is ridiculous that a simple short on a non-critical circuit (the interior lights FFS!) can cause the immobilizer to activate. This particular vehicle is an overlander, and I dread to think what I would have done if out in the middle of nowhere. Evil or Very Mad
Post #744485 7th Dec 2018 1:52pm
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dorsetsmith



Member Since: 30 Oct 2011
Location: South West
Posts: 4554
The only other thing with 10AS in pos 07 to 2011 land rover

1. problem with 10AS immobilizer comm to the ECM wiring go to the instrument panel from 10as down to ECM have been problems with instrument panel PCB
2. the only way to check you needs a diagnostic tool to see if ECM is seeing immobilizer and also to check the set up on your 10AS

3. you 10AS has crash interrupt switch built in as your engine mechanical fuel pump. i can not remember if this stops it from cranking or just stops engine from running

Last edited by dorsetsmith on 7th Dec 2018 3:56pm. Edited 1 time in total
Post #744494 7th Dec 2018 3:18pm
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redline



Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Mountains and Lakes
Posts: 221
Switzerland 
I'm assuming that the problem was caused by the short circuit on the interior lighting. I've never had a starting issue before, so I would think a wiring problem is less likely.

I'm guessing that a Nanocom can do the diagnostics through the OBDII, but would it be able to "re-set" the 10AS? And would the 10AS still be able to communicate to the ECM? I understand there needs to be a common code between the two. What a headache, for the sake of an interior light... Rolling Eyes

Thanks again Dorset - really appreciate your help! If you ever pass through Switzerland, I owe you a beer ... or three!
Post #744496 7th Dec 2018 3:30pm
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Martin
Site Admin


Member Since: 02 Apr 2007
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 6605
United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red
dorsetsmith wrote:
The only other thing with 10AS in pos 07 to 2011 land rover

1. problem with 10AS immobilizer comm to the ECM wiring go to the instrument panel from 10as down to ECM have been problems with instrument panel PCB


If this was the case I would expect the starter relay to work OK, but the ECU won't receive the immob code so it won't fuel.  1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top
2015 D90 XS SW
Post #744497 7th Dec 2018 3:32pm
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redline



Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Mountains and Lakes
Posts: 221
Switzerland 
Has anyone used the Gap Diagnostics IID Control tool and App?

"Looks like" it specifically has the capability to re-set the Defender alarm / immobiliser...



Click image to enlarge
Post #744510 7th Dec 2018 4:38pm
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Martin
Site Admin


Member Since: 02 Apr 2007
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 6605
United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red
I've got and used one but not on a 10AS Sad  1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top
2015 D90 XS SW
Post #744511 7th Dec 2018 4:42pm
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redline



Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Mountains and Lakes
Posts: 221
Switzerland 
Cheers Martin. I will drop them an email and inquire specifically about the 10AS functionality.
Will post on the forum if I get any information which may be useful to others.
Post #744512 7th Dec 2018 4:44pm
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dorsetsmith



Member Since: 30 Oct 2011
Location: South West
Posts: 4554
redline wrote:
All-right ... more tests:

1. Coil side voltage measured across both pins (85 and 86) of starter relay is 7.2V
2. Voltage measured across pin 86 of starter relay and body ground is 12V
3. When the relay is activated manually, the car cranks, but does not start.

All three tests with key fully turned to "Start" position.

The conclusion is - I assume - that the immobiliser is reducing the starter relay voltage to 7V (why not 0V though..?!) as well as inhibiting start through the ECM (fuel or some other parameter).

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

3. When the relay is activated manually, the car cranks, but does not start.

All three tests with key fully turned to "Start" position. _have been thinking to day Idea you have loosed your ignition switched 12V supply to alarm

Last edited by dorsetsmith on 10th Dec 2018 8:25pm. Edited 3 times in total
Post #744520 7th Dec 2018 5:19pm
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redline



Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Mountains and Lakes
Posts: 221
Switzerland 
Removed the Instrument cluster today in order to access the immobilizer (as per the workshop manual):


Click image to enlarge

However was surprised that it not there. You can just about spot it through the dashboard, but looks like you need to remove the entire dashboard to access! Is the manual wrong or am I missing something??

I'm not exactly enthused at the prospect of removing the dashboard, so if there is another way would be good to know!
Post #744864 9th Dec 2018 7:25pm
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Martin
Site Admin


Member Since: 02 Apr 2007
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 6605
United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red
Remove the driver's side speaker and look through the hole.  1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top
2015 D90 XS SW
Post #744865 9th Dec 2018 7:28pm
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dorsetsmith



Member Since: 30 Oct 2011
Location: South West
Posts: 4554
long poz drive screwdriver help too 40cm long
Post #744870 9th Dec 2018 7:43pm
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redline



Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Mountains and Lakes
Posts: 221
Switzerland 
Thanks again Martin and Dorset! Was not looking forward to removing the dashboard - even if it looks like it could do with a tidy-up back there.

Hopefully once the 10AS is out, TechnoZen or Graffe will be able to revive it...
Post #744890 9th Dec 2018 8:59pm
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redline



Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Mountains and Lakes
Posts: 221
Switzerland 
So, I accessed the 10AS through the LHS speaker hole. Didn't remove it - I'm not really sure its possible through there, unless you have very small hands, and very bendy arms Shocked

That said, I may not have to remove it (yet...). I spoke to Paul Brown from TechnoZen. He is VERY knowledgeable about the unit as he offers checking / re-programming / upgrade services for the 10AS. He reckons that the vast majority of faults attributed to the unit are actually connector, loom or power issues. He encouraged me to check those before removing the unit.

With the aid of a connector pinout (kindly supplied by Paul) I checked:
• Pin 25 permanent 12V - which was OK.
• Pin 10 ignition switched 12V - which is not working – I get absolutely nothing when I turn the key.

So before I remove the 10AS, I need to figure our why its not getting power on ignition.
Post #745024 10th Dec 2018 7:06pm
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