 | Home > Maintenance & Modifications > rear A frame balljoint - why "allow axle to hang freely |
 
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1841  
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Hi,
So there's a knocking noise coming from the back when the rear axle goes over small bumps. Particularly 'short/sharp' bumps. It's like something's lifting off, then 'knocking' back down again. Other suggestions welcome, but I've been under the car and tried to find any obvious play in the various bushes, shock and spring mounts etc and got nothing. So my current suspect is the a frame balljoint. I know a fulcrum + ball joint is available, and that would be easier as I don't have a hydraulic press. So, to take the old one out the WS manual says "support the chassis... and let the axle hang freely"... why is this? I can't see that the A frame is under any tension in its static form - with the wheels on the ground, the axle can't fall anywhere; the body is sitting on the springs; front/rear it's the trailing arms... So why introduce all the complications of lifting the car and letting the axle hang? I've never done this job before, so I must be missing something, but having had a look, it would seem easy enough to remove the two bolts holding the fulcrum to the arms; undo the castellated nut; 'pop' the ball joint and then fit the new part? An alternative, if the balljoint won't pop easily, could even be to remove the four bolts holding the balljoint bracket to the axle, and do the balljoint in the vice - but I suspect that might not be so easy if those bolts have been in there a while. So, from anyone who's tried this, what's the catch? Why not do it with the axle on the ground? Ta D Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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1st Oct 2018 10:27am |
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| geobloke Member Since: 06 Nov 2012 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 4410 
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Hi Donald. Before you go down the A-frame route it is worth checking out the rear tub to chassis mounts. There should be a small piece of rubber between them, these do fall out over time and then you can get a nice bang when they hit each other.
It is also worth checking the your spare tyre is securely attached, sounds daft I know... I had a very similar problem with the 110, turned out to be a loosely stowed but heavy tupperware box in the storage drawers. Heavy enough to not get air normally but short sharp obstacles like speed bumps etc would bounce it and create a large bang...! Whilst you are looking around check the side window glass (if you have it) is secure, degrading felt runners allow extra room for the glass to move. Bang.! Axle half shaft and flange wear can cause a good clunk/bang especially when very worn and over sharp bump. Then there are the usual bushes, loose bolts, broken springs or shock mounts... ... ...then think about the A-frame ball joint. |
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1st Oct 2018 11:21am |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1841
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Thanks for that!
Very similar thought process I have to say... "getting air" is exactly what I think something is doing, but I was running out of likely suspects. No spare wheel at the moment - awaiting the fitment of the new rear door and wheel carrier. (But as an aside, that's a good reminder to stick it back in the boot this evening, as I'm off on a trip tomorrow...) Window glass - not long since I've sorted all that in an attempt to keep the car dry and quiet; Boot contents - there's actually nothing in there at the moment apart from some old jackets and a bottle of engine oil - and the boot floor has a foam liner anyway... Packing for the tub to chassis mounts though.... now that's worth considering. TBH I think it might be more that sort of noise. The chassis has just been swapped, so I'm "assuming" they were fitted - but it's possible they weren't such a tight fit and have fallen out. I'll get back underneath and check those out. I'm familiar with the ones which would fit roughly under the 2nd row seats. I remember seeing them in the past. Are there others somewhere? Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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1st Oct 2018 11:33am |
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| geobloke Member Since: 06 Nov 2012 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 4410
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Certainly if I look under my rear wheel arch I can see a space between the tub and the chassis that is small enough that it could be the cause of a sharp impact sound.
Really the A-frame ball joint gets a lot of blame heaped on to it, but in the now vast amount of time I have been Land Rovering I have only ever had to change one ball joint and even then I do not think I needed to. Bushes on the other hand are the cause of many a clunk and weird handling issues and noises. |
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1st Oct 2018 11:56am |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1841
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(Before I do any more, a big 'shout' to retroanaconda and his blog page. So many times I go there to get hold of the parts manual. It's great to know that in a couple of clicks you'll get what you need, no ads, no pop-ups. Thanks.)
So... having gone to the parts manual, I found part number 332582 listed - a 5mm mounting pad, and there's supposed to be 12 of them in there somewhere. Pretty sure this is what I remember seeing previously. I'll have to go and have a look and see if they are in place. But in the meantime..... if anyone has done the A frame job, even if I don't do it at the moment, for future reference what about this question of letting the axle hang? Can it be swapped out without doing this? Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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1st Oct 2018 12:25pm |
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| MartinK Member Since: 02 Mar 2011 Location: Silverdale (Lancashire/Cumbria Border) Posts: 2665 
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There's a good piece on the "Busters" guide:
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/a-f...al.110342/ Defender "Puma" 2.4 110 County Utility (possibly the last of the 2.4's) |
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1st Oct 2018 3:24pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8006 
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Same as Mo, I have never let rear axle drop. You can change them in situ with wheel on. If it's the ball joint knockingyou may see wear dust/marks on the joins/nut face.
Shock bushes? Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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1st Oct 2018 3:49pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17344 
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I think that the reason LR instructs thus is that with the axle at full droop it is gererally possible to fit a 30mm ring or combination spanner on the balljoint nut, but (unless you drop the tank out) it isn't otherwise possible. Getting a socket onto to the nut is also often impossible except on vehicles with a Salisbury diff, so the ring spanner option can be attractive.
There is no other reason of which I am aware. |
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1st Oct 2018 4:37pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8006
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I have always used a thin walled socket Cheers
James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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1st Oct 2018 6:52pm |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1841
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Thanks all for your replies. It's good to know I can try and change the balljoint that way if it comes to that.
Another possible culprit is one of the lower shock mounts. The n/s one is pretty loose - it's new, but I didn't fit it and it looks like they've chewed up the spanner flats on the bottom of the threaded pin..  I don't have a chain or strap wrench to grab the body of the shocker, because I think that's the only way I'll get this tightened.
I'll try that first as it's a more likely cause, and then see if I need go and investigate some padding under the tub or the balljoint. The garage that did the work is about 130 miles away, but I might be passing that way on Thursday..... Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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1st Oct 2018 7:52pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8006
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Sounds like you have identified the problem. Small spanner on the end? Mole grips on bottom of shock where it goes into bush? Cheers
James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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1st Oct 2018 8:26pm |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1841
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Thanks James - 'small spanner on the end' - this is the bit they've chewed up, it's rounded so the spanner doesn't grip.
I'm ashamed to say I didn't even think of mole grips. I must have been having several senior moments rolled into one. It's not one of my 'go to' tools because it often seems like a bit of a bodge - but probably justified to fix someone else's bodge! Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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1st Oct 2018 8:41pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8006
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weld a nut on to the end of it carefully to minimise heat build up. oil filter strap on body of shock sometimes works depends how old the shocks are.
to me it sounds like the nut didn't go on straight and cross threaded hence why firstly its not tight enough and secondly the end is mangled. despite all above my first point of call would be to hold the shock with my hand and use an impact gun on it to undo the nut. Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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2nd Oct 2018 12:50pm |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1841
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Hi James,
'Cross threaded' is exactly what I thought. No other reason I can think of that a new nut/shock combination should be so tight. It's only been on the car since beginning of August. You're doing a pretty good job though of reminding me what's in my toolbox!  I recently bought a pretty good torque gun, and I guess it's so new that I'm still not remembering I have it. That would be an easy enough thing to try first.
If i get it off, then I'll see if I can run a thread die along it to tidy up the thread and refit. Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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2nd Oct 2018 2:29pm |
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