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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324  
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Well, often a 2x safety factor is used for rigging (wire rope etc.) so why not on the electrical side... (unless of course you're doubling what already is doubled??)
What is the main factor that makes something fail that was otherwise calculated to be OK? Bad material not up to spec? Higher resistance at a joint? Heat causing increased resistance not factored in? Or is the answer just 'because winching' ?  Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants... |
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24th Apr 2017 8:39pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8033  
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i think its the predicted heat loads been far exceeded over times of repeated heavy winching. Cheers
James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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24th Apr 2017 8:53pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8033
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by repeated i mean quite a bit of winching, like all day to go 2km for example Cheers
James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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24th Apr 2017 8:54pm |
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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324
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So a failure to predict worst case usage..
Or at least failure to adhere to designed duty cycle limits. Predictably human! 🤖 Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants... |
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24th Apr 2017 8:56pm |
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| Miggit Member Since: 09 Mar 2017 Location: Milton Keynes Posts: 72 
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I think you'll find that if the lug has got hot enough to melt the solder then that will be the least of your worries, cos you'll be looking at cable meltdown.. Plus the main cause of heat is a bad connection, which the solder eliminates from the start... possibly not the best for challenge winching, granted, personally mine is more for siting trailers, so it's not going to get a hammering. But you do have a valid point, if the terminal isn't squashed up on the cable then you could be in a world of pain... RRC 2.4 TD... it's either a stretched 90 or shrunken 110!!
ML 270CDI |
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24th Apr 2017 9:23pm |
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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324
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Would have thought that the appropriate cable for the job would have a shroud that would melt/burn well above solder melting temps? Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants...
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24th Apr 2017 11:46pm |
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| Mo Murphy Member Since: 01 Jun 2008 Location: Letchworth Garden City, Herts Posts: 2229 
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I'd echo what JST has said about cable size. I run 70mm2 for my X9.
Mo The Land Rover 90 - Many are called, few are chosen. 50 Shades of Pennine Grey |
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25th Apr 2017 2:58am |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720 
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Putting over size cable isn't bad, apart from it not getting as warm, the underlying reason (which makes it warm) is resistance. So making the cable fatter than you need means less transmission loses, so the winch has more power.
Uprating the main earth from the battery to the chassis and chassis to the gearbox doesn't do any harm either, helps with cold starting and if you have a tired or slightly discharged battery it might mean the difference between starting and not. You don't need to run two earth leads into the battery box, but if you increase the size of the battery to chassis strap you're essentially running the winch cable direct to the battery and then spuring the main earth off of it.
If the cable and terminal are up to the job, they wont get hot enough to melt solder, but as others have said if it does manage to get hot enough to melt solder that's the least of your worries, the plastic battery casing melting is far more of an issue. Solder also make a better electrical connection than simply crimping, and it seals out corrosion causing moisture, which in turn reduces the chance of it running hot. |
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25th Apr 2017 5:04am |
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| miker Member Since: 13 Sep 2015 Location: Surrey Posts: 1763 
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Crimping better than soldering for lugs in a vehicle.
A good crimp makes a gas tight connection, effectively cold welding the copper into one lump. Solder has a tendency of wicking up the cable and making a stiff section that leads to the potential for vibration and fatigue failures. Also not easy to do a good quality solder joint on big cable, you need to get a lot of heat in there. Much easier to do a good quality crimp, half decent hydraulic crimpers aren't expensive! The oversized cables makes a lot of sense, a winch will pull a lot of current, say 200A at peak loads. If I am sizing a cable for 200A then it's going to be at least 70mm, but the voltage drop is the big thing. Losing 1 volt in voltage drop is almost 10% in a vehicle application, which is a lot! Which is why the guys often run dual cables. Look at the high end car audio world, where guys are running 3-4 battery leads to eke out the last bits of power from their systems |
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25th Apr 2017 6:44am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17387 
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Totally agree with Miker!
There are unexpected problems with soldered joints in vibration-rich environments and the soldered joint must be designed with proper support. It is also very easy to damage the insulation and potentially produce harmful acidic byproducts. A good crimp is generally more satisfactory. I aslo agree with jst and others about the cable size. You want the max power available at the load, so to minimise the voltage drop along the cable. You also want to make sure that things that shouldn't get hot, don't get hot. For aftermarket wiring the additional cost of being very generous with the cable spec is insignificant, but to a vehicle manufacturer it is not, so the original spec will be carefully calculated to be adequate rather than generous. |
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25th Apr 2017 7:14am |
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| Miggit Member Since: 09 Mar 2017 Location: Milton Keynes Posts: 72
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Right so going on what has been said here should I now cop hold of one of these? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-4-70mm-8T-Hy...SwA3dYExwi
And are they any good? RRC 2.4 TD... it's either a stretched 90 or shrunken 110!! ML 270CDI |
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25th Apr 2017 9:20am |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8033
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voltage drop is the killer of winch motors. thats why many overvolt to start with. the motor will run better seeing 18-20v on a 24v system through a12 v motor than the same motor on a 12v system but only seeing 9v.
my comp truck only has a 0.4v drop on supply to motor from battery through Albright. Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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25th Apr 2017 1:24pm |
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| ChrisCM Member Since: 10 Jun 2013 Location: Cornwall uk Posts: 572 
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Thanks for all the replies, I have 35mm 2 cable, and one of the crimpers referred to by Miggit, they can certainly crimp the cable very securely, well, I can't pull it off, and I've tried! but it does tend to squash the terminal somewhat.
Chris 2010 Defender 110 Station Wagon, Santorini Black. |
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25th Apr 2017 1:55pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17387
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At that price it is unlikely to be a quality tool, but that doesn't mean that it isn't an effective tool. For comparison, my HD crimp tool (up to 120mm cable) cost well over £200 new in 1985. In essence however they will do the same job, but mine will probably still be doing it long after I am dead and gone, the £16 China special however probably won't. These are good: http://www.auto-electrical-supplies.co.uk/..._terminals These are also good: https://www.autoelectrical.parts/product/0...als-qty-1/ And these are good and surprisingly effective: https://www.autoelectrical.parts/product/0...als-qty-1/ To be honest I would much rather buy one of these than a China special. They are also sold by Snap On under the Blue Point brand at a cool £90 for exactly the same tool! |
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25th Apr 2017 2:42pm |
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