 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Can anyone explain |
 
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| rustandoil Member Since: 08 Sep 2012 Location: Cotswolds Posts: 738   
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Discovery has one. piece half shafts, would they be the same?
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26th Feb 2017 11:26am |
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| RoddyK05 Member Since: 08 Apr 2015 Location: Inverclyde Posts: 633  
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I think mine might be on the way out too. After reversing into the driveway and leaving it overnight, when I pull out in the morning I usually get a clunk - would swear it was a sticking handbrake if it were a 'normal' car. Today I got two clunks, one from either side. Could this be the shafts settling back into their wear grooves after reversing? Are new shafts horrendously expensive, or surprisingly affordable?
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26th Feb 2017 8:21pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720  
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New shafts from Land Rover are horrendously expensive (£300 each or something), but Bearmach ones are about £30 each, although there doesn't seem to be any stock anywhere at the moment.
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26th Feb 2017 9:42pm |
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| JWL Member Since: 26 Oct 2011 Location: Hereford Posts: 3443 
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Personally I prefer the seperate hub drive flanges, over the years on my 110 Td5 I've replaced quite a few through wear of the flanges not the half shafts. Mine is pretty well loaded with crap all of the time and gets used for what it was designed for and I'm far happier in having the weak link at the flanges than the halfshafts. The flanges at £8 to £10 a time are a lot easier on the pocket than a halfshaft or woe betide a diff or transfer box plus spares take up hardly any space in the motor. Soon swop to a new one in 10 minutes on the side of the road as well
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27th Feb 2017 1:17pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17361 
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I'm not convinced that that reasoning actually makes sense.
In my experience, the flange/halfshaft interface only ever fails as a result of wear through fretting, not from failure due to overloading. So with two-piece shafts, eventually the shaft/flange interface will wear out unless you are religious in your lubrication regime, or modifiy the stub axles to allow the old-fashined oil lubrication. All the halfshaft failures resulting from shock loading or overloading I have seen have sheared the inboard end off the halfshaft. I am sure that ther eare other failure modes but these are the common ones. If you are saying that you like to have well-worn drive flanges so that you know they are the weakest link in the driveline, then there may, I suppose, be merit. But to my mind, an overload failure is likely to break a halfshaft anyway, but a one-piece shaft at least won't fail through fretting. So I'd go for one-piece in a shot if they were comparable prices. I have had dismal experiences with LR halfshafts and flanges, but have found that Ashcroft HD shafts and flanges last much, much longer. |
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27th Feb 2017 4:13pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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I'm with Blackwolf, i'd rather fit something that didn't break than broke but was easy to repair.
How often to half shafts actually break? I know it used to be a common problem on older models with 10 spline inboard ends, but it's less of a problem on newer ones. I would have thought LR tested the newer type shafts and fitted them for a reason. How often did the Disco 1, single piece half shafts fail in normal use? |
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27th Feb 2017 11:55pm |
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| Devon-Rover Member Since: 22 Jan 2015 Location: South Devon Posts: 914 
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Using text book maths then they should fit as they latest shafts are the same number for 110 and 90 models and the 90 rear axle hasn't changed width wise since at least the mid 1990's. Shaft failure still happens under shock loading but the later 24spline shafts seem to be a bit more resistant. Mostly CV's blowing up, or crownwheel deflection. Now whether this is better materials or suspension technology keeping wheels on the floor meaning less chance of a spinning wheel touching down hence snapping shafts is a variable factor. I have broken a few shafts on my series as a result of the shock loading and running aggressive tyres and only one on my trials motor which was a 10 spline of unknown age. I have upgraded to 24 so we shall see how long they last. I would consider a lucky advantage of owning a newer landy is the ETC means spinning wheels are a lot less likely, but fretting because of the repeated on off transfer of drive I feel is more common. |
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28th Feb 2017 11:55am |
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| JWL Member Since: 26 Oct 2011 Location: Hereford Posts: 3443
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@ Blackwolf, I'm just going by my experiences and it works for me. No I don't like sloppy hub flanges but for me, whether having the early type of traction control found on the Td5 has made any difference, I've only had one halfshaft snap at the diff end but at least six hub flanges give out. Granted they have all been Bearmach not genuine and greased when fitted and not run dry but wear can be seen on the flanges within 10,000 miles where you can see the splines in the flanges resembling pyramids not flat topped. This has been my observation after 8 years of ownership and close on 100K mile. It may be due to my usage, loading and driving technique but that's how it is.
When I rplaced the snapped halfshaft with a new one there was no determinable differences with the other three hub end splines in terms of wear so I'm sticking to being happy with the seperate hub flanges. |
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28th Feb 2017 12:24pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17361
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Doesn't that support my suggestion that if you'd been using one-piece shafts you'd have saved having to replace six failed flanges?
I have trouble seeing how removing a known weakness can worsen reliability; eliminating one point of wear doesn't lead to more wear somewhere else. i think I am missing the point! |
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28th Feb 2017 12:55pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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That's actually a very good point.
I think it seems to be the Land Rover enthusiast's way. If it's newer it can never be as good as the old way. |
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28th Feb 2017 1:19pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8018  
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ETC doesn't mean wheels are less likely to spin. its reactive, not preventative like CDL. so for ETC to react a wheel must rotate at a different speed (spin) compared to the others.
ETC does induce sharp shock loads on the whole transmission though. by defaults its more effective the quicker the spinning wheel spins (or you try to make it spin). we found on testing that diffs rather than drive members took the brunt of it resulting in broken diff centres or occasionally snapped shafts (diff end) rather than Drive member wear. we also had the odd broken calliper mounting bolt when ETC worked hard in reverse. Drive member wear seems to be more of a problem with latest vehicles which i would suggest is cheaper material for drive members rather than a function of ETC when compared to Td5 ETC vehicles. People who don't use ETC much still get DM wear. Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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28th Feb 2017 3:07pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8018
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Sorry i forgot to say switching to wet spline system helps. i run Ashcroft shafts and bearmach DMs on my 2010 110, swapped out the original at 40k miles. to be fair although dry there wasnt that much wear anyway.
i also fitted Ashcroft lockers to eliminate the ETC being so harsh under off road conditions! at least the diff is now stronger. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6M2WGaxM3Y ^^^ good example of how harsh TC is around 1min11s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-ZCoP5u8ls where as here you can see ETC working with slow fns wheel rotations when in the air. gravity helping with vehicle momentum too. unlike the first link. Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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28th Feb 2017 3:26pm |
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| Devon-Rover Member Since: 22 Jan 2015 Location: South Devon Posts: 914
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To clarify what I'm getting at as the ETC has intervened a spinning wheel, then you are less likely to see the scenario that you will get a very fast spinning wheel coming back down to earth say when you are trying an aggressive uphill climb where there is a crossaxle. Instead of a loss of momentum resulting in spinning wheels you get the ETC coming into brake that wheel before it comes back to ground.
It is that ETC action I feel will add to driveshaft wear which the all in one approach removes that weak point from the driveline. An interesting point I would note is that in your first link that ETC action is very harsh, I don't ever get that or notice it when in such a situation. Having a play a while back and putting my 110 into a crossaxle a small amount of throttle (rev raise to 1500ish RPM) and hearing the modulator work smooth forward progress was resumed without the apparent jerkiness I saw in your video. Even when going from trickling along to a good healthy rev to get things spinning and the ETC working I didn't get a defender sized version of buckaroo. And while i'm here in that situation would it of been an idea to try the left foot brake technique against the antistall to preload and fool the diffs to transmitting drive equally? I find in rock crawl type situations very controlling to just inch along feathering the brake and clutch in unison to keep things slow and controlled. |
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28th Feb 2017 4:58pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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Well i knew what you were getting at. The ETC intervenes much earlier on so that the wheel doesn get to pick up speed before coming back down to earth. |
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1st Mar 2017 12:16am |
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