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Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey

slap around the head with a wet sock .....

if anyone say's it's me I'm gonna go get a dirty old smelly old was sock and slap it around someones head.

jumped in the car this morning at about 10.30am circa 3deg C. waited for the glow plugs to go out and plumes of white smoke for about 5 seconds. then as quick as it started it stopped. drove about 500 yards and stopped with engine off for about 3 - 5 mins. started engine again and it was sweet like you'd expect a decent modern engine to behave and continued to do so for the next hour or so with various short(ish) journey of about 3 miles? no injector knock, just sweet?

this starting issue seems to have been getting progressively worse but not just first thing in the morning but also in evenings when it may have been stood still for 2 - 3 hours?

it never used to be like this so something is definitely getting worse. the obvious might be glow plugs but I'm sure it's not that and I'm sure it's linked to the injector knock noise I've always experienced on / off?

any thoughts?

10th Jan 2016 12:15pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20343

10th Jan 2016 12:18pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

Yep. That's about how I feel about it only probably a shed load more so.

What a pile of f in pants. My def is like new -- she1te!

10th Jan 2016 12:46pm

Cupboard

Member Since: 21 Mar 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 2971

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 HT Corris Grey

Tell you what, I'll buy your Defender off you. Cash sale, I'll come and pick it up, then you can go and buy some clean dry socks. I'll even take you to the shops to get the socks. And as a sweetener for the deal I'll bring a pair with me, I got some new ones for Christmas, so you have something dry to wear to the shops to get your replacement socks.

Give that your Defender is clearly falling to bits then I think a price equivalent to 10 pairs of socks would seem reasonable? I might stretch to 12 depending on how I'm feeling.

That's exactly how mine behaves.

10th Jan 2016 12:57pm

Riccarton

Member Since: 10 Aug 2015
Location: Gods' Own Country
Posts: 280

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Zambezi Silver

I think you should be charging this site for the therapy you're giving us all - after your issues everybody else's is great

Anyway. I think I remember from previous threads that you've dismissed water usage i.e. head gasket - so:
1. The white smoke must be unburnt fuel.
2. It only happens when it's cold.

The unburnt fuel could be heater plug issues or it could be over-fuelling. If it's heater plug a simply diagnostic check will tell you that. I'm still not convinced you've done enough to eliminate this yet as if one heater isn't working the unburnt fuel from that pot will be getting ignited in the manifold etc by the exhaust from the 3 pots that are running fine - hence the white smoke. As soon as the pot without without the heater does fire then the white smoke will stop.

You could also get a similar issue with a leaky injector putting fuel in when at rest which has to be cleared before the correct mixture is restored.

However, if it's over-fuelling then it could again be an injector or something like a temp sender telling the ECU it needs more fuel than it does. Again, a good diagnostic check will verify this.

It hasn't been remapped has it? I remember a previous TD5 of mine would give a wee bit of smoke at certain times after a remap so I took it back and the chip-man altered the fuelling at various points in the rev range to give best performance without smoke. Hopefully yours is standard so diagnostic testing should be more straight forward.

IMHO you need to get it to a decent indie (don't use a stealer with "Technicians" - find an indie who actually knows / care about what he's doing!).

Good luck

10th Jan 2016 1:47pm

landy andy

Member Since: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Ware, Herts
Posts: 5695

2006 Defender 110 Td5 USW Zermatt Silver

I used to hate reading these threads, but now I love them. I feel so much better having hot rid of the turd time bomb that is a Tdci. Thanks Caterham, keep them coming.

Andy.

10th Jan 2016 1:55pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

Riccarton, fuelling issues are exactly what I suspect. Although as you've suggested i'm not writing off the glow plugs just yet.

I've disconnected the cht sensor and will see how it goes. I'm assuming this isn't likely to cause any problems in the short term?

Does anyone know what resistance value this should have ?

Thanks very much Riccarton and glad to be keeping some entertained at my misfortune

10th Jan 2016 3:30pm

ickle

Member Since: 22 Jul 2010
Location: South Vendee
Posts: 1780

2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Alpine White

Are you sure there's something wrong?

Is it just not a cold morning / cold DPF (or whatever that ceramic honey comb filled lump is in the down pipe of the exhaust) plus the humidity of the outside air?

Park it somewhere warm overnight - lounge? and try it in the morning!

Keith

10th Jan 2016 3:37pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

Thanks Keith but having had it 5 + years and i'm pretty sure it's a problem as never seen plumes of white smoke before - steam / condensation before not smoke.

Thanks for the suggestion tho.

10th Jan 2016 3:43pm

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

Taken from another post with similar symptoms on this very subject, http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic33691....orryman100

Lorryman100 wrote:

Check the relay under the drivers seat for corrosion and that all the pins are making contact. Check the loom around the relay holder for any signs of damage, water ingress or corrosion. Next thing would be a Ohms test on a glow plug with a DMM to check for an open circuit on any of the glow plugs and also check the glow plug rail for amps when the ignition is switched on and the glow plug cycle starts.

Click image to enlarge

From the symptoms you describe and that you can hear a relay click then it starts as normal then this is the first place I would look. It sounds as though the glow plugs are not receiving any power during the pre heat stage which causes the engine to start and then die

From another post to save me rewriting it:

Lorryman100 wrote:

During the preheat stage, the ECM receives the engine temperature from the cylinder head temperature (CHT) sensor and this is what determines the preheat time. The lower the temperature, the longer the preheat time. There is a maximum preheat time of about 8 seconds at -20°C or lower.
Once the engine has started, the glow plugs enter an after-glow phase. The after-glow phase only operates at engine speeds below 2500 rpm, above that the after-glow phase is stopped to increase the longevity of the glow plugs. There is a maximum after-glow time of about 30 seconds at -20°C or lower. If the CHT is above 50 degrees C there is no after glow.

If the connection is loose then yes that can be a cause of the glow plugs not working. A easy test is to use a DMM and do a voltage / amps check on the rail. The glow plugs draw a decent amperage so a loose connection will stop the maximum current from being delivered to the plug rail.

HTH

With the wet weather we have been receiving with the high humidity then the white smoke is normal on start up due to the low temp and high moisture levels in the air. As the ECM relies on the CHT sensor for the block temp to adjust the fuelling when starting disconnecting the CHT just exasperates the issues you are receiving as the ECM defaults to stored values. JMTW :thumbsup:

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated

10th Jan 2016 4:07pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

Lorryman there is no question about your knowledge on such matters but not being here to see the exact symptoms your unfortunately having to rely on my poor descriptions.

The white smoke of recent is very different to what I've experienced during previous winters ie the White 'smoke you see from most cars in the winter when cold. This is more a kin to what you'd see years back when people put a dose of redex into their carb to clean things.

Granted it's not so cold but the def has been stood for numerous hours today while trying to assist 80+ year olds that fall over in front of my house cracking their head open and bleeding everywhere while waiting 20+mins for an ambulance while working on the central locking which is still struggling to operate with the mechanisms disconnected from the solenoid

Anyhow car all washed up door card in garage and CHT sensor disconnected.

Took for a drive and:
A - no smoke
B - no injector knocking

Drive as I would have expected a cold modern diesel to?

Coincidence perhaps, too early to tell if this is the problem yes.

Will leave it's disconnected for the next few days and see how it goes.

As above if someone can provide some data on resistance values against temp it would be much appreciated.

10th Jan 2016 4:35pm

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

The reason for no smoke and less rattle/clatter is due to there being less fuel in the burn on start up as the ECM is now using fuelling temp values as the CHT is disconnected, not an issue with the temps we are getting plus the Puma engine is direct injection which means that the glow plugs are not really needed down to about -20 C.

Lorryman100 wrote:

As I am sure we all know a Diesel engine is generally not capable of pinking because prior to injection of the fuel it is only air that is being compressed, as there is no fuel mixed in, there is nothing to pre ignite (A petrol engine can pink due to pre ignition of the air/fuel mixture as a hot spot ignites the fuel prior to BTDC, eg: a faulty or wrong type of spark plug fitted). On the Puma fuel is delivered into the cylinder progressively in three stages and the knock you hear is due to the heavy compression of the air in the cylinder BTDC as the fuel ignites. But injection is not instantaneous, injection lag—the time required to build injection pressure and get it to the nozzle and “pop” it open, delays things. Once fuel is injected, ignition lag also occurs. Injector design and spray pattern, compression temperature, fuel cetane rating, and more influence ignition lag.
The “lag” during the compression stroke tends to cause diesel fuel to ignite spontaneously, thus creating the familiar diesel knock or “clatter” sound; upon ignition, cylinder pressure suddenly rises and “rings” the cylinder. This sound is noticeably louder on a cold engine as the EMS fuelling protocol allows for more fuel into the burn firstly to help overcome the cold mass of the engine block and get the engine started and then to keep it running as it warms up. The EMS knows the temperature of the engine via the CHT sensor, the air temp coming into the engine first at the MAF sensor and then before it goes into the cylinder from the MAP/T sensor. As the engine warms less fuel is used and the clatter subsides.
When the engine is warm and running at say 2000 rpm the amount of fuel required to maintain these revs depends on engine load and temp. Then if you depress the accelerator pedal, a higher load is put on the engine and more fuel is needed to accommodate this load which results in injector lag and cylinder pressure suddenly rising and rings the cylinder which sounds like Knock.
You can reduce the Knock by using a higher cetane fuel (I use BP Ultimate every tank) and you can raise the cetane number higher again by adding an additive to the fuel, I use Millers Oils Diesel Power Ecomax Fuel Additive Treatment every tank resulting in a quieter engine but you will never get rid of the clatter, knock or perceived pinking as that is the result of the combustion process in a diesel engine. HTH

10th Jan 2016 10:03pm

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

Wayne, when you say Injector Knock, what exactly do you mean? Also how did you come to this conclusion did you use an oscilloscope on the injector circuit or a stethoscope?

10th Jan 2016 10:08pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

Hi Brian

So the sound to me is like how I would have expect a petrol car to sounds years gone by when the timing was out under load (pinking) which I suspect in the puma case is the knocking noise you describe above due to over fuel.

When a friend of mine mentioned the cht sensor I immediately thought of the single wire going to this that I have often was very stiff and thought it might be green under neath with corrosion (having had a plug on the rear loom drop off twice due to green corrosion I been suspicious of the wiring). Having had another look at the loom at cht sensor I don't think it's as bad as I first thought. But as the sensor could be faulty and I guess telling the Ecm to increase fuel because it thinks it's cold I thought i'd disconnect it.

No expecting it to drop below -20 just yet so its tied up out of the way while I see how things go.

Any how - how are you keeping?

10th Jan 2016 10:19pm

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

Doing fine, at work and a little bored.

I think you would benefit from the latest inventions for the issues you have been experiencing, they range in price from a few pence to about £30 from here

10th Jan 2016 10:28pm

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