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B4Lamb



Member Since: 21 Mar 2015
Location: Abergavenny, Wales
Posts: 233

Wales 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Galway Green
MAF Sensor Wiring
I'm trying to see if my MAF sensor is working. I tried clearing a P1103 error code but it came straight back. I've looked around for wiring details to see if I can measure the sensor changing its value when revs are increased. I'm assuming its an analogue sensor but I'm having some doubts. It has 4 wires going into the plug whereas all diagrams I have seen only show 3 wires. The colours on the plug left to right when viewing from the front offside wing (RHD model) are Yellow, Blue, Grey, Grey. The outer two pin positions on the plug are not fitted with wires. When disconnected and ignition ON they measure left to right 5V, 0V, 12V 5V. The 0V (chassis ground) is the Blue Lead and all voltages are reference to this ground lead. When connected and ign ON, the left most Yellow lead changes to 2.5V and the rightmost Gr lead changes to 3.57V i.e. loaded up. I forgot to measure what the 12V lead does when connected. Anyway when I rev the engine the Yellow stays at 2.5V steady but the Rightmost Grey drifts a tad to 3.7V but doesn't return when revs are taken off. I was expecting at least 1 of the two leads to be proportional in volts to revs or air intake volume. If these sensors are digital maybe I wont detect a change as I believe they output a variable frequency sort of square wave of around 1 to 7 kHz where frequency increases with air flow (revs). I'm reluctant to by a new sensor if the existing one is fine. Its in a 2007 TDCi 2.4 Defender. Can someone confirm the type of sensor and the wiring please. The unit is a 6C11-12B579-AA although the 6 may be an A? "You are never to old to learn something new"
Post #480662 9th Dec 2015 2:21pm
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Caterham



Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6304

England 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
Hope this helps.... sorry don't have sheet 1 to hand.



Click image to enlarge


Don't ask why I happened to have this to hand..... Whistle

Please let me know how you get on.

Good luck.
Post #480674 9th Dec 2015 3:26pm
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B4Lamb



Member Since: 21 Mar 2015
Location: Abergavenny, Wales
Posts: 233

Wales 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Galway Green
Yes that is excellent information. I'm deducing that the wires are left to right using my original notation are 5 (Yellow) = FMAF signal, 4 (blue) = MAF Rtn i.e. 0V Ground, 3 (Grey) = 12V Bat, 2 (Grey) = IAT which I think must be 'Incoming Air Temperature'. So I need to concentrate on pin 5 the Yellow lead. As far as I could tell when I tested earlier today it didn't change voltage with revs so I'll look at it with an Oscilloscope tomorrow if it stops raining just in case its a digital square wave, it may be as its 2.5V as that equates to the mean value of a 5V peak to peak square wave. I'll provide an update later on. Thanks for the diagram, I'm sure this will come in handy for other members as well. "You are never to old to learn something new"
Post #480691 9th Dec 2015 4:37pm
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dgardel



Member Since: 30 Nov 2008
Location: Veneto (Heart & Head)
Posts: 3586

Italy 

Click image to enlarge



Pinout (sensor side)
A – N.C.
B – Segnale sensore portata aria = Air Sensor Signal
C – Massa (ground)
D – Alimentazione sensore portata aria = +12V sensor power
E – Segnale sensore temperatura aria = Air Temp Signal
F – N.C.


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Pinout (harness side)


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Frequenza del segnale in uscita (Hz) = Output Signal frequency
Flusso aria (kg/h) = Air Massflow


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Temperatura (°C) = Temperature (°C)
Tensione in uscita (V) = V out
Resistenza nominale (Ohm) = Resistance

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated Mr. Green  Discovery 5 td6 HSE Stornoway Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition

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Post #480777 9th Dec 2015 7:21pm
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B4Lamb



Member Since: 21 Mar 2015
Location: Abergavenny, Wales
Posts: 233

Wales 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Galway Green
Thank you dgardel, that has nailed it. I will measure the frequency vs engine RPM using a frequency counter and look at the signal quality with a scope in the next day or so. I do not know the air mass per hour for any engine rev rate for the 2.4 ltr engine but at least I will have some reference data that may be correlated. I obviously expect the output to be in the ballpark range of 1 to 10 kHz. My measurement of the temperature signal indicates my sensor is not that accurate as I was detecting 2.5 V which equates to approx. +35C but actual temperature today outside was about +10C. Its the air flow rate however that I am really interested in though to see if Alarm code P1103 is reporting the correct fault diagnosis. "You are never to old to learn something new"
Post #480851 9th Dec 2015 9:40pm
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B4Lamb



Member Since: 21 Mar 2015
Location: Abergavenny, Wales
Posts: 233

Wales 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Galway Green
I have done a few sums from the data kindly provided by dgardel. The MAF sensor transfer function approximately matches a power curve where output frequency f = 1048.8 x^0.3489 (Hz) where x is the flow rate in kg/hr. Using this equation you can find the output frequency for any flow rate. Now you need to know flow rate for the engine. for a 4 stroke engine my brain says it uses half its cylinder capacity in air per rev so for a 2.4 ltr it uses 1.2 ltrs per rev. the mass of air is 1.19 grams per litre. So per rev the 2.4 Puma will consume 1.428 grams of air. At 1000 rpm it will consume 1.428 kg/minute or 85.68 kg/hr. The MAF sensor scaling is Freq (Hz)/kg.Hr. So we can now generate a table of MAF output frequency for fixed values of engine revs.



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Now I have to test mine to see if it matches??

I'll be back! "You are never to old to learn something new"
Post #480971 10th Dec 2015 11:35am
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Caterham



Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6304

England 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
How about varying boost pressure depending on engine load?
Post #480978 10th Dec 2015 11:47am
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B4Lamb



Member Since: 21 Mar 2015
Location: Abergavenny, Wales
Posts: 233

Wales 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Galway Green
This may be true but ill be testing with no load just spinning the engine so I'm hoping this factor will not affect the result that much. If the flow rate does appears to indicate higher than my simple prediction then maybe the Turbo is contributing to increases input flow rate with little or no load. "You are never to old to learn something new"
Post #480985 10th Dec 2015 12:03pm
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B4Lamb



Member Since: 21 Mar 2015
Location: Abergavenny, Wales
Posts: 233

Wales 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Galway Green
I have now taken some measurements using a digital oscilloscope. I took a measurement with the Ignition On before starting the engine and it sits steady with a nice square wave 5V p-p at 778 Hz. At Idle (~750 rpm) the mean frequency goes up to 4.78 kHz but it is a bit variable so I took about ten results and took the average. The highest sample was 4.93 kHz and the lowest was 4.36 kHz so the variance is not that bad. I repeated these measurements at 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, and 3000 rpm using the rev counter and my other half on the throttle pedal trying her best to hold a steady engine speed at each setting. Again at each rev setting I took about 8 to 10 results then took the average. The results are plotted on the predicted curve I did earlier today. I noted that the variance of results was less at all engine speeds above idle.

As you can see the measured frequency roughly follows the curve but the last reading jumps higher so I'm wondering if that is the Turbo coming in which will draw in more air and also I noted that the frequency dropped when I went from Idle to the first test increment at 1000 rpm. Not sure what that is due to but I'm sure there is an explanation. I may repeat the tests later just to make sure it is consistent.

One thing is for sure and that the MAF sensor appeared to be functioning but maybe not accurate but then again my rev counter may be a bit out as well. I'm not sure what level of accuracy I'm expecting.


Click image to enlarge


I took a few pics of the measurements on the scope for interest but I'll post these later as they may be of interest to someone. "You are never to old to learn something new"
Post #481025 10th Dec 2015 3:14pm
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Rickydodah



Member Since: 14 Jul 2014
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 1091

Please don't think me an idiot B4lamb as it's clear you're far more knowledgeable than I on these matters, in my day if it ran then that was pretty much it, however my question is: if the airflow is predictable then why have a flow sensor at all? Are your readings at sea level and at what air temperature. I'm in no way questioning your data merely trying to get my head around how it all pieces together Bow down I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Post #481030 10th Dec 2015 3:43pm
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B4Lamb



Member Since: 21 Mar 2015
Location: Abergavenny, Wales
Posts: 233

Wales 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Galway Green
I would not say I am knowledgeable about these things Rickydodah. I'm a retired design engineer but I was not in the motor industry. My thread started with me trying to work out if my MAF sensor was faulty as the fault code may suggest and I have learned a lot in the process thanks to the help of others on Defender2.net. Your questions about prediction.... I used that term purely in the context of knowing approximately what the MAF sensor should roughly be measuring for a set of conditions so that I could see if in practice this was achieved. In engineering you need to understand what you expect before you embark on physical experimentation. Modelling and calculations can often get you 90% of the way in a lot shorter time rather than trial and error. It may well be possible to do calculations on the fly using engine revs and turbo speed/pressure to calculate the air volumetric flow rate for a particular sized engine but I guess measuring it at the input side after the air filter is the way it was done traditionally and is probably a fairly bomb proof way of doing it hence why this is the method used by most combustion engine manufacturers.

Re your other questions I am at 420 ft above sea level and the temperature today was about +12C The slightly lower air density at this altitude would have a minimal impact on the cooling effect of the hot wire element in the sensor (slightly less cooling effect) and the low (ish) temperature would tend to have a slightly greater cooling effect compared to +25 C that may be the calibration temperature of the sensor. I think these are in the noise though.

Regarding temperature though you may recall that when I measured the voltages I established that the temperature sensor element on the MAF sensor appears to be indicating much higher temperature than actual. I would guess that the measured temperature is not used locally in the MAF sensor to compensate the measured volumetric air flow rate but that this is done in the ECU. Now if the ECU thinks the air is much warmer than it really is it may be overcompensating the MAF sensor reported flow rate and this may be why error code P1103 'MAF in range but higher than expected' is being generated. Its a long shot.

I can correct the temperature measurement temporarily by using a pair of resistors to form a potential divider and force the voltage sent to the ECU to be more representative of the actual temperature value. So I will turn my attention to that. Ideally I would like to borrow a known good MAF sensor to do direct comparisons. "You are never to old to learn something new"
Post #481166 10th Dec 2015 9:35pm
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B4Lamb



Member Since: 21 Mar 2015
Location: Abergavenny, Wales
Posts: 233

Wales 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Galway Green
Sample scope capture of MAF output between 750 and 1000 RPM.

Click image to enlarge
 "You are never to old to learn something new"
Post #481175 10th Dec 2015 10:09pm
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Rickydodah



Member Since: 14 Jul 2014
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 1091

B4Lamb wrote:
I would not say I am knowledgeable about these things Rickydodah. I'm a retired design engineer but I was not in the motor industry. My thread started with me trying to work out if my MAF sensor was faulty as the fault code may suggest and I have learned a lot in the process thanks to the help of others on Defender2.net. Your questions about prediction.... I used that term purely in the context of knowing approximately what the MAF sensor should roughly be measuring for a set of conditions so that I could see if in practice this was achieved. In engineering you need to understand what you expect before you embark on physical experimentation. Modelling and calculations can often get you 90% of the way in a lot shorter time rather than trial and error. It may well be possible to do calculations on the fly using engine revs and turbo speed/pressure to calculate the air volumetric flow rate for a particular sized engine but I guess measuring it at the input side after the air filter is the way it was done traditionally and is probably a fairly bomb proof way of doing it hence why this is the method used by most combustion engine manufacturers.

Re your other questions I am at 420 ft above sea level and the temperature today was about +12C The slightly lower air density at this altitude would have a minimal impact on the cooling effect of the hot wire element in the sensor (slightly less cooling effect) and the low (ish) temperature would tend to have a slightly greater cooling effect compared to +25 C that may be the calibration temperature of the sensor. I think these are in the noise though.

Regarding temperature though you may recall that when I measured the voltages I established that the temperature sensor element on the MAF sensor appears to be indicating much higher temperature than actual. I would guess that the measured temperature is not used locally in the MAF sensor to compensate the measured volumetric air flow rate but that this is done in the ECU. Now if the ECU thinks the air is much warmer than it really is it may be overcompensating the MAF sensor reported flow rate and this may be why error code P1103 'MAF in range but higher than expected' is being generated. Its a long shot.

I can correct the temperature measurement temporarily by using a pair of resistors to form a potential divider and force the voltage sent to the ECU to be more representative of the actual temperature value. So I will turn my attention to that. Ideally I would like to borrow a known good MAF sensor to do direct comparisons.


Thanks for your explanation, I find this a most intriguing subject. Personally I've never been a great fan of this type of flow measurement, Lucas with their "hot wire" couldn't get it right thirty years ago as there were purely too many variables for which this type of device couldn't reliably calculate, admittedly processing of sensor outputs has improved incredibly in that time, maybe the improvement in data from other sensors around the engine and not processing data from just one source, as it was then, has improved overall performance. However good luck I'll look forward to the outcome Thumbs Up I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Post #481188 10th Dec 2015 10:40pm
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B4Lamb



Member Since: 21 Mar 2015
Location: Abergavenny, Wales
Posts: 233

Wales 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Galway Green
I re-measured the voltage of the temperature sensor at the MAF sensor connector and today it was 3.6V which according to the MAF data sheet is just over 10 deg C so that is about right so the temperature sensor is reading correctly.

I managed to borrow an ACTIA Multi Diag tester from a friend and did some more tests today from the Diagnostic socket (fuse box above the pedals). The tool allowed me to see what the conditions were when the P1103 fault code was generated and it stated that the fault was generated at 2284 rpm and the MAF was measured at 42 and 68 g/s not sure why two reading are given but it equates to 151 and 245 kg/hr respectively. 151 kg/hr is lower than expected and 245 kg/hr is higher than expected. The air intake temperature was 13C and I was doing 96 km/hr with an engine load of 82%.

I did some tests with no load using Multi Diag today and generated a table of MAF vs revs to 3500 rpm. I have plotted these together with the converted results from a few days ago where I was measuring the frequency output of the MAF sensor. I have plotted all the results in kg/hr against revs.


Click image to enlarge


As you can see the results of todays test reading direct from the ECU are quite similar to the tests I did a few days ago just measuring frequency and converting back to MAF. The air flow seems below expected without Turbo effects but at 3000 rpm and above they exceed but that I believe is the Turbo. I have not taken into account the effect of the EGR because some intake I'm assuming is taken from the expanded hot exhaust gasses. This may explain why readings are lower up to 2500 rpm.

I therefore do not understand why I had the P1103 error. The MAF sensor seems to behaving itself and I changed the EGR valve a few months ago. The error occurred at 2300 rpm where I am reading low values rather than higher than expected values although the error diagnostics revealed a value of 245 kg/hr which seemed high but then again I don't know why two values are given in this diagnostic test as the other value was much lower.

Anyway I managed to reset the error code and the Orange engine warning light as gone out. I found I could only clear the error with the engine off and the ignition on which I guess is designed to stop crazy things happening. I will have to keep my eye on it to see if it comes back and what leads up to it. Exclamation "You are never to old to learn something new"
Post #481566 12th Dec 2015 4:11pm
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X4SKP



Member Since: 29 Nov 2013
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 2295

United Kingdom 2010 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey
Hello B4Lamb

Interesting...I had the MIL (engine light) come up 6 months ago...bought and fitted a ScanGaugeII to reveal a P1103 DTC (error code)...as you know the MAF 'in range but higher than expected'. On this occasion (the first for me / 2.4tdci / 15,000 Miles) the MIL went out after around 5-6 engine runs (cycles) on delivery of the ScanGaugeII I cleared the logged fault code from the ECU.

Today up came the MIL again (22,000 miles so 7,000 since last occurrence), quick check and established that it's the P1103 code again...so your initial question is of interest...have I got a failing MAF sensor or is this a 'puma feature' with a generally temperamental sensor that may not be really good enough... Question

My Defender is running well (always has) no sluggish performance and 26 to nearly 30 MPG...so why... Question

It's relatively little money to replace and I think that's my next step, your skill set looks beyond mine in testing the MAF to a point of giving confidence that it is either good or bad.

The only thing I can possibly add is that during the diagnosis of mine the ScanGaugeII gives you the option of seeing the FRDZ...this is described as the Parameter Identification Descriptors (PIDs) if any data was captured during the fault code being 'logged' this is stored....so I was hoping to see 'how out of range' the MAF had gone...all I got was PID00= which I currently interpret as 'nothing measured'

You are right about the need to have the engine off but ignition on to clear 'switch off' the MIL, also clear the logged fault code on the ScanGaugeII (ECU)

Hope you learn more and thanks for the detailed post... 'work to date'

My P1103 Fault Code today...


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MIL Engine Light illuminated... Shocked


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Scan feature requested... Thumbs Up


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1 Stored Code... Sad


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P1103 DTC... Rolling Eyes


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PID00... Question


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Clear Code... Question


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Codes Cleared / Engine Off Ignition On


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Engine On / MIL Off... Mr. Green SKIP
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Post #481662 13th Dec 2015 12:17am
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