 | Home > Maintenance & Modifications > Fuel Leak... Have you seen this before? |
 
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295   
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I noticed when cleaning my 90 that there appears to be some fuel ‘run-off’ rinsed away from around the fuel filler area.
When I hose it down, particularly around the ‘drainage’ area directly below the filler cap (1) this results in the apparent diesel ‘rainbow film’ on the puddle below...(2,3). I also noticed that this ‘fuel wash off’ looked to stop after the initial 'flushing out', (but I may be wrong here). I have owned this 90 for 10 weeks now and have always filled it near enough to the top of the main filler pipe in order to check the MPG. On inspection there looks to be no damage to the filler cap, main filler pipe, or tank. There is a slight cracking of the breather pipe where it swells over the plastic moulding (circled) but I don’t’ believe this is all the way through, (this will be corrected in any event). Has anyone seen this before? Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks. My 90 is a 2010, 2.4 TDCI with 8K mileage.  Click image to enlarge Is this a Fuel Leak? Click image to enlarge The Breather Pipe is showing some slight cracking... Click image to enlarge Main Pipe and Tank look to be effectively as new... SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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9th Jan 2014 12:25am |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816  
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You should not fill to near the top of the pipe. That may cause an overflow which just is a waste of fuel, and if with your very full tank you would put the truck in a warmer environment for some time fuel might expand some more and overflow might get worse. Always stop filling at first automatic click-off. As to the breather pipe issues, you can easily search for a dedicated link on here, but at times they do start leaking on the lower end as I know from my dealer.
Eric You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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9th Jan 2014 4:31am |
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| Naks Member Since: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Stellenbosch, ZA Posts: 2645  
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Always fill up until the automatic pump shut off. -- 2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear 2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged
Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9 Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ |
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9th Jan 2014 7:13am |
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| Macpaul Member Since: 25 Mar 2013 Location: SW Surrey Posts: 439 
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As has been said, never overfill but you might have spilt a few drops of diesel on the plate that surrounds the filler cap when you were at the er, petrol station. The ridge between the plate and the vertical bodywork could then have trapped it.
Washing may have just rinsed it off. A little goes a very long way. As someone who rides a motorbike, I am extremely keen that nobody puts diesel on the road (it's like liquid ice and kills people every year) but unless this persists or gets worse, I wouldn't worry. Just maybe wipe the filler neck surround with a paper towel next time you fill up. 2003 Td5 110 Hardtop Now a 2013 110 USW too. |
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9th Jan 2014 7:54am |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6300  
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doesn't that first photo show the fuel p**ing out?
mine had a fuel breather pipe that looked badly cracked / perished (replaced underwarranty) but never noticed it actually leaking and I always brim......I find the 'first click' a damn nuisance 
(how else would I keep getting 500 miles on a tankful  
I personally would be more concerned about the rear catching up with the front on a wet bend, motorcyclists who might be following and getting excess water / muck into your fuel tank. good luck in resolving ps. your chassis looks nice and clean as a result. 
just noticed your main filler pipe......the jubilee clip near the tank appears to be resting on the chassis rail - is that right? I have a 110 so can't say for sure but mine is much higher up? |
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9th Jan 2014 8:27am |
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| Macpaul Member Since: 25 Mar 2013 Location: SW Surrey Posts: 439
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Actually, scrap that. I've just clicked on your first photo properly and there's more than a drop or two there. 2003 Td5 110 Hardtop
Now a 2013 110 USW too. |
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9th Jan 2014 9:13am |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Thanks all, good points and noted.
I should have been more precise with my description, I do in fact stop at the second auto click when refuelling; having checked that it is actually full, (easy to know really that you are nearly there as we are all familiar with watching those 40+ litres get deposited). Occasionally on my previous Defender 1994-2013, 300 tdi 90 CSW, the fuelling auto-off feature would activate both on the commencement of filling, probably experiencing some sort of 'blow-back' but also at various points during filling. Slightly withdrawing the nozzle would often do the trick and stop this. After 19 years owing the 300 tdi and knowing exactly what to expect this may be just learning the new vehicle. The exact configuration of body panels has changed around the filler cap and the current (and now last arrangement!) has taken the approach of allowing some / most of any water / fuel in this area to drain through to the inside surface of the rear body panel. It is indeed possible that I let those all too often; last few dribbles run onto this area and set up a clinging oil residue to be washed away later. Needless to say I will be watching this very closely at my next fill, with a paper towel at hand. Hello Macpaul, good point, I ride too and are acutely aware of this issue for bikers, it was part of the reason for posting this question. I have clocked up 250k in all four seasons, in the last 20 years. Oil residue at a set of lights has been my only issue with the ABS saving me now twice. Hello Caterham, this is water not neat fuel running out having just rinsed it down. I will check also regarding the jubilee clip on the main pipe into the fuel tank, I noticed this too thinking it will be awkward to undo when required. Time for a really close inspection... again thanks for initial thoughts. SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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9th Jan 2014 9:39am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17450 
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Second auto click is OK, but don't put any more fuel in after that. If you 'brim' to the filler cap you will probably lose fuel through the atmospheric breather, and certainly will in the even of an increase in temperature.
The filler breather (small pipe to filler assembly) is designed so that when the pump auto clicks off there is still an expansion space in the tank. The breather pipes (both the filler breather and the atmospheric breather) tend to perish, crack and split and will be doing this within about three years. It is worth replacing them since eventually you will have fuel egress and also potentially dirt and moisture ingress. |
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9th Jan 2014 12:16pm |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Hello All, I thought I had an answer for this... but no.. now things have developed!
I would appreciate your thoughts / experience of this 'evidence'... I had noticed that on removal of the Filler Cap I get a 'reasonable' amount of Diesel 'run-out' which if I then shake the Cap gets to the point of 'a bit more than feels right', all the droplets seen below are diesel! (New Cap on order) Click image to enlarge Fuel Cap Diesel Drops... On the recessed face of the 'Filler Bodywork' (below the Cap) there are two drain holes (left and right) to allow rain water and in my case, more than a few drops of Diesel through to the inside wheel arch / panel, where the Diesel either runs off or is 'stored' in the mud etc until it is washed out. Click image to enlarge The wet 'run' here is Diesel after a more vigorous than usual 'shaking' of the Filler Cap So whilst I have only managed a few hundred miles in this 90 since January, I have been careful in filling stations not to add to my Dripping Cap problems. I have also not noticed any Diesel film / puddles when washing the 90, even placing a board underneath this area once, as we have just had 20 tons of new gravel laid and the original photos showing a 'dirt drive' have gone. Anyway even though this may be a small part of the original problem... things have moved on. Click image to enlarge Main Plastic Tank Fuel Leak. My guess at first glance in that Custom90steve's comment 'perhaps pipe to tank' and blackwolf suggesting that both filler and atmospheric breather pipes show signs of break down at or around 3 years are correct, (My 90 is a 2010) My 'breather pipe' at the Filler Cap end is slightly cracked, which you may just be able to see. Click image to enlarge Filler Pipe 'cracking / break down' My problem looks to be at the Tank end of these pipes, or possibly the Tank itself. The vehicle will get a proper inspection this weekend to confirm, but any insight / experience of this would be appreciated. Click image to enlarge Main Filler Pipe and Breather Pipe The Breather Pipe in particular looks to be a tight and possibly torturous route through? During this 'Fix' I will also reset the position of the main jubilee clip on the Filler Pipe as like Caterham also spotted it is resting on the chassis currently, which can only add stress to the neck of the Tank, this may actually be my problem but the 'Leakage Pattern' (above) suggests to me currently that the 'source' of the problem is higher up. Thanks. SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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4th Apr 2014 8:53am |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Hello All,
Just been reading through... http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic22296.html and it would seem highly likely that I am just going where 'many' have gone before, is it really too difficult to make a Breather Pipe capable of lasting more than 3 years 
might not be my problem, but is going to be my first 'look see' happy to hear any comments. SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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4th Apr 2014 5:26pm |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Hello All,
I thought I would write up my fix, as it turned out to be less than straight forward. To sum up...I have a 3 year old 2.4tdci 90 with a split fuel breather pipe, I have been filling the tank to 3/4 full to prevent further leaking whilst working out (and finding time) to fix this. I’ve had the 90... 6 months now so didn’t feel too worried that I needed to get the tools out...it must be about time and how difficult can this be
Click image to enlarge Fuel breather perished-cracked at the top... but clear evidence of a leak at the tank end of breather pipe. (The ‘wetness’ at the ‘top end’ is plusgas in readiness to remove). Plan A Replace with Standard LR Breather Pipe I called my local dealer to check on a replacement...the conversation went something like this... ‘I need a fuel breather pipe for a 2.4 tdci Defender’ Yes sir, let me check (sounds of the keyboard in the background) whilst looking this up he asked, ‘how old is your vehicle’? ‘3 years’, I replied ‘Yes, that would be about right,... we have just got 6 in, we fit 3 and sell 3 a month’ ‘ok...how much’? £100...(how much  I checked this, £100, and decided there needs to be a Plan B)
Plan B Factored Part £80... Plan C Trade Route I managed to source a genuine LR OEM complete breather pipe for £60, but my issue, even at this price is do I want to do this every 3 years. I replaced the metal fuel tank on my 300tdi at 18 years and the rubber pipes were all still serviceable... has the puma breather pipe been wrongly specified
Plan D Improvise and Improve The standard breather pipe is a 3/4 inch ID, 27mm OD, with a smaller T fitted breather pipe which looks to have a non-return valve (probably to prevent leaking in a roll over but not sure on this). Some 10 years ago I refitted all diesel pipes on a family boat and used a very good marine source, they still look as new, and have been used ‘in anger’ both in fresh and salt water environments, so I bought 1M of 3/4 inch 10bar pressure diesel fuel delivery hose (a hose that is designed to be fully submerged in diesel, some aren’t specified for this) and decided I’ll make my own up. Cost £12 + vat + delivery = £16. So get access to the breather pipe...it’s here the fun starts... Click image to enlarge Raise the Defender off the ground (essential IMO)... release the main filler and breather pipes. On mine the circlip on the main filler pipe needs to be ‘punctured’ right on the end, breaking a thin membrane to reveal a screw head (this stops muck getting in and therefore corrosion, a good spec’ LR). Click image to enlarge Remove the main filler pipe, Al ‘anti crush’ element, siphon out tank and tape up. Obviously start this whole job with the fuel warning light on and with just a little diesel in the tank. Click image to enlarge Remove anti-roll bar bolts, (rotate bar out of the way towards the diff’) and remove X4 lower tank guard bolts. Remove X2 rear ‘cross member’ tank guard nuts. Click image to enlarge Edge the tank guard and tank forward to try and remove... I managed about 10-15mm then came to a halt... Click image to enlarge The tank on my 90 is then right up against a floor spar. To get the tank out requires a forward movement of both the guard (and tank) of around 30mm. This takes the guard past the drop down sections of the chassis on which the tank guard sits, at this point the tank can then be lowered. Click image to enlarge The tank guard has rear facing stud welded bolts that project 23mm through the cross member, when I finally got the guard off I measured these and they project around 28mm in total, so again you need even with a bit of twisting downwards thrown in (if possible) a forward movement of 25-30mm is required to remove the tank and guard. Click image to enlarge The leading and rear overlapping elements of the tank guard require a straight forward movement (towards the diff’) of 30mm to clear the chassis...if all remains as standard. But straight forward it isn’t. Now it's at this point that you realise that on this 90 (and I would like to know if the 110 / 130 has a different arrangement), to get the tank out requires a significant bit of force to lever it out, (I mean really significant force) probably scuffing or semi-deforming the upper top corners of the tank in the process. I even lifted the carpets in the rear and started counting rivets when considering removing the rear floor (if I went this route then a access ‘hatch’ would appear before the floor went back in), possible but more mad than my emerging plan. You also realise that probably the assembly of this originally at Land Rover (I would guess) was a tank and guard fitted to a rolling chassis prior to the body being assembled above. I would also guess that if you did get the guard and tank out, on refitting you would lap the guard on the outside of the chassis rather than attempt to reinstate it back to its original position. Has anyone done this (on a 90), it looks just impossible to me. You also consider that Land Rover were probably keen to get the range for the Defender above 300 miles, and so made the tank as large as possible, it does feel as though someone has got under there with a balloon and all but filled the space available. Click image to enlarge So my fix was to cut the guard out, removing just the M10 fixed nuts on the corresponding sections of the guard. Prior to doing this I marked out a NS and OS template for a replacement pair of aluminium brackets (plates) to make good the guard, this ensures the hole positions are correct. Click image to enlarge Offending parts of the guard removed... and the guard and tank can drop and twist out relatively easily. I left the tank in place initially and removed the guard first. Click image to enlarge Tank guard repair (or improved modification as it will now be called) I used aircraft grade 3mm dural sheet, but 3mm, standard Al sheet will be ok, (steel would be good too but always looking for a weight saving) SS M5 screws and nylock nuts to fix it all together. Click image to enlarge Finished tank guard, cleaned, keyed, etch primed and painted, satin black epoxy. Click image to enlarge The breather pipe can be replaced without taking the tank out, but I wanted to check all tank seams were ok and it’s easier to work on when fully out, release fuel pipe retaining clip/s and X2 main fuel lines attachments on the top of the tank, these are easy push release connections. (well done LR). There is also a single electrical connection plug for the fuel gauge that is easy to unplug. Click image to enlarge Before the tank was out I could see a significant split in the breather pipe, it coincides with the ‘swelling’ on the plastic tank breather insert, this pipe (IMO) clearly doesn’t like this condition, and it’s the same at the other end. On further examination there were 2 other splits next to the small T pipe also on the swelling section on the inner plastic insert. The splits on the breather pipe at the tank end looked as though they had been achieved with a scalpel, the one shown is right through. Click image to enlarge My replacement breather pipe, I will reuse the smaller T breather pipe... Click image to enlarge The 1M length of new pipe was fractionally longer than 1M, so I cut 2 replacement sections for the breather pipe, this therefore reduced the cost by 50% with a backup stored for later use, (hopefully many years from now). Click image to enlarge The SS standard breather pipe clips are a good design and can be reused... Click image to enlarge I also placed a piece of 15mm neoprene (closed cell) sheeting on the base of the guard to raise the tank up to near its original position as my guard will now sit below the chassis mounts not above, the mounts are around 6.5mm thick – 2.5mm guard = around 4.0mm lower. The neoprene compresses to around 10mm when the tank is full, (I checked) the reason this is important is that the main outlet of the tank is close to the chassis when installed and so it’s important not to put this neck under stress. So I raised the tank by around 6mm overall as originally mine was very close at this point with the circlip used in exactly the wrong position an actually resting on the chassis. Click image to enlarge New breather pipe assembled and tank + guard refitted to Defender. Click image to enlarge The anti roll bar bolts I replaced with SS + larger washers and the replacement M10 bolts and nuts again with larger washers are used where the old bolts had been, there is good access above the guard to get spanner or socket in to tighten these M10s up. I reattached the original main filler and new breather pipes. Filled her up and checked for any obvious ‘you still have a problem’ signs. I will now keep an eye on this. The big issue (for me) was to get a better solution for the removal of the tank guard and therefore access to the tank, especially if this is a ‘regular’ job with a life expectancy for a standard LR breather pipe (it would appear) of around 1000 days. I didn’t want to feel ripped off for a replacement pipe either £60-100 might be justified if it lasts 6-10 years, but from what I think I know, I don’t trust that it will. Hopefully I will beat that, and at a significantly reduced cost
My first job on a puma...a sign of things to come SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html Last edited by X4SKP on 24th May 2014 1:38pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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24th May 2014 1:14pm |
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| LR90XS2011 Member Since: 05 Apr 2011 Location: bickenhill Posts: 3645 
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excellent write up thanks (however I,m hoping I don't need it ) DEFENDER 90 TDCI XS,
I hope everyone is well and your land rovers make you happy |
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24th May 2014 1:36pm |
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| spudfan Member Since: 10 Sep 2007 Location: Co Donegal Posts: 4709 
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Great stuff. If (When
 ) mine needs done I'll print this off and give it to whoever is doing it. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali 2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu 2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai |
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24th May 2014 6:06pm |
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| ronwong Member Since: 28 Jun 2012 Location: Singapore Posts: 120 
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Excellent write up, I have the leak for some time and no it's not 3 years, my puma 2.2 is only 1.5 years old. If I fill to the brim, about 200ml will leak onto the floor and I can see the top of the tank is wet, so I think this is the same problem I am having.
I just want to check, you have this pipe that comes out of the tank that is short, and connects to the t junction which has a J hook on it and follow by a long pipe. The J part is the breather right? And it does not leak? The leak is on the short piece? Where does the other long end connects to? Is this pipe where the fuel goes to the engine or there are other fuel lines? Sorry I have not got the time to look under yet. |
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31st May 2014 11:37am |
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