geobloke wrote:

Two weeks on and I am still getting used to the ATBs. The difference is quite remarkable, but there are a few observations worth noting at this early stage. Miffy has covered 6-700 miles covering all grades of main roads and a number of green lanes as well.

Vehicle: Miffy is a 2003 TD5 110 CSW without ABS/TC. She has a moderate engine tweak. She does have a full roll cage and ARBs front and rear. Sitting on 285/75/16 AT tyres. She is not the heaviest, but she's no lightweight.

Observations

1) Quick junction pull off: This has been transformed. Previously the old girl would spin one front wheel if you gave the pedal a little poke and especially in the wet or cold. No longer. Mirrors. Signal. Shoot of the line... No wheel spinning. Positive acceleration. So much safer.

2) Lift off oversteer: Yikes, that was a surprise, not sure I have read about this one. This happens as you are turning into a corner and lift off a tad. With an open diff you'd understeer and power on out of the corner. But with the ATB in the front the reverse happens. It is not a problem, obviously you just keep your foot planted and hold on And the tighter the turn the more obvious the oversteer. Interesting experience the first few times.

3) Firm steering: This has been said before, but the front ATB does add weight to the feel of the steering. It is not horrid by any standard, in fact it has the feeling of positive resistance .

4) Return to centre: Also been said before. I like this additional return to steering centre. It is not scary but as above has a lovely positive feel.

5) Fast road: Well obviously within speed limits and the Defenders capability The ATBs are superbly invisible at speed, as you'd perhaps expect. But when you do have to plant the accelerator pedal whilst at speed to overtake there is no hesitation and the grip is marvellous. Feels planted.

6) Braking: I am not sure how the mechanics of this works, perhaps someone can enlighten me. The old girl appears to be stopping much much better. By that I mean shorter distances, straighter and it is almost impossible to lock up the wheels. It must be the transference of power L and R across the axle. I do wonder if this is going to accelerate brake disc and pad wear in the long run. But it is definitely something I can live with, the braking feels much more positive.

7) Gravel/Cobble tracks: Good lord above what a superb level of grip. Now Miffy has always been excellent on gravel tracks, never had much to complain about. She just bimbled along them every now and again into difflock and out again. But the difference is another level above this. Honestly the old adage of "low, difflock, 3rd - go anywhere" should be re-written for us ATB bods. Super levels of traction. Super confident. But, it extends beyond that because slow cobble descents

Low and slow: I do like to go low and slow, engine braking down long scrabbly descents. I like the control and technicality of wheel placement. With the ATBs it is another level of control whilst going low and slow. Yes the steering is a tad heavier, but the additional cross axle traction is worth it. Super slow and controlled. Such a great addition.


So, take what you will from that two week review. I believe the steering is lightening slightly as the front diff is becoming used, it feels more transparent than it did initially. The rear is completely invisible. I cannot wait to see how Miffy does over the winter period, we get some incredibly variable conditions here in darkest Denbighshire and is one of the reasons for the for fitting the ATBs. Do I still wish I had ABS and TC.... Hmmm... Less so I think. I would love to drive a Defender with ATBs and TC out of curiosity. I have in the past toyed around with retrofitting ABS and TC to Miffy. It is not a dreadfully difficult thing to do, involved yes, but not impossible. But, I am a bloke who thoroughly enjoys the simplicity of mechanical components and I seriously doubt I would consider retrofitting ABS/TC anymore. Or at least if I do crave ABS/TC it will be for the challenge rather than the requirement, if that makes sense.

Lets see how things go from here

Quote:

Interesting feedback. Do you think you'll have chance to get the vehicle fully cross axled, in a situation where you know it might have been stopped with open diffs? Would be interesting to see what your feedback would be in such a situation.

Well, as long as there is traction under most of the wheels then I would expect the ATBs to assist overcoming the obstacle. If there are wheels dangling in the air the ATB will do sweet fanny Adams. But yes of course I am keen to have a try and see what happens, left foot braking at the ready...

excossack wrote:

Its times like this you need to do the roller test - a set of rollers under each wheel one at a time or axle at a time and see if you can get traction

Such as

geobloke wrote:

Two weeks on and I am still getting used to the ATBs. The difference is quite remarkable, but there are a few observations worth noting at this early stage. Miffy has covered 6-700 miles covering all grades of main roads and a number of green lanes as well.

Vehicle: Miffy is a 2003 TD5 110 CSW without ABS/TC. She has a moderate engine tweak. She does have a full roll cage and ARBs front and rear. Sitting on 285/75/16 AT tyres. She is not the heaviest, but she's no lightweight.

Observations

1) Quick junction pull off: This has been transformed. Previously the old girl would spin one front wheel if you gave the pedal a little poke and especially in the wet or cold. No longer. Mirrors. Signal. Shoot of the line... No wheel spinning. Positive acceleration. So much safer.

2) Lift off oversteer: Yikes, that was a surprise, not sure I have read about this one. This happens as you are turning into a corner and lift off a tad. With an open diff you'd understeer and power on out of the corner. But with the ATB in the front the reverse happens. It is not a problem, obviously you just keep your foot planted and hold on And the tighter the turn the more obvious the oversteer. Interesting experience the first few times.

3) Firm steering: This has been said before, but the front ATB does add weight to the feel of the steering. It is not horrid by any standard, in fact it has the feeling of positive resistance .

4) Return to centre: Also been said before. I like this additional return to steering centre. It is not scary but as above has a lovely positive feel.

5) Fast road: Well obviously within speed limits and the Defenders capability The ATBs are superbly invisible at speed, as you'd perhaps expect. But when you do have to plant the accelerator pedal whilst at speed to overtake there is no hesitation and the grip is marvellous. Feels planted.

6) Braking: I am not sure how the mechanics of this works, perhaps someone can enlighten me. The old girl appears to be stopping much much better. By that I mean shorter distances, straighter and it is almost impossible to lock up the wheels. It must be the transference of power L and R across the axle. I do wonder if this is going to accelerate brake disc and pad wear in the long run. But it is definitely something I can live with, the braking feels much more positive.

7) Gravel/Cobble tracks: Good lord above what a superb level of grip. Now Miffy has always been excellent on gravel tracks, never had much to complain about. She just bimbled along them every now and again into difflock and out again. But the difference is another level above this. Honestly the old adage of "low, difflock, 3rd - go anywhere" should be re-written for us ATB bods. Super levels of traction. Super confident. But, it extends beyond that because slow cobble descents

Low and slow: I do like to go low and slow, engine braking down long scrabbly descents. I like the control and technicality of wheel placement. With the ATBs it is another level of control whilst going low and slow. Yes the steering is a tad heavier, but the additional cross axle traction is worth it. Super slow and controlled. Such a great addition.


So, take what you will from that two week review. I believe the steering is lightening slightly as the front diff is becoming used, it feels more transparent than it did initially. The rear is completely invisible. I cannot wait to see how Miffy does over the winter period, we get some incredibly variable conditions here in darkest Denbighshire and is one of the reasons for the for fitting the ATBs. Do I still wish I had ABS and TC.... Hmmm... Less so I think. I would love to drive a Defender with ATBs and TC out of curiosity. I have in the past toyed around with retrofitting ABS and TC to Miffy. It is not a dreadfully difficult thing to do, involved yes, but not impossible. But, I am a bloke who thoroughly enjoys the simplicity of mechanical components and I seriously doubt I would consider retrofitting ABS/TC anymore. Or at least if I do crave ABS/TC it will be for the challenge rather than the requirement, if that makes sense.

Lets see how things go from here

It has been almost 6 months since fitting both ATBs into Miffys axles and I thought I would go back through the earlier observations, see if anything has changed.

First off though, Miffy has now covered 3-4000 miles since fitting the ATBs and again a real mixture of surfaces, distances and loads. She has been loaded up to the roof-line and a full roof rack when we moved house and has carried out some decent towing with a 19ft tri-axle Ifor Williams plant trailer. All of which she just took in her stride. She has passed her first MOT with the ATBs installed with no problems at all, in fact the tester complimented her on how well she drove. Which is always nice to hear. It is also getting close to her Spring service so it will be a full oils flush and re-grease. She deserves it, the trooper.

So to the observations:

Observations

1) Quick junction pull off: This has been transformed. Previously the old girl would spin one front wheel if you gave the pedal a little poke and especially in the wet or cold. No longer. Mirrors. Signal. Shoot of the line... No wheel spinning. Positive acceleration. So much safer. Still enjoying this part of the ATB life. Such a good feeling not having a tyre break loose.

2) Lift off oversteer: Yikes, that was a surprise, not sure I have read about this one. This happens as you are turning into a corner and lift off a tad. With an open diff you'd understeer and power on out of the corner. But with the ATB in the front the reverse happens. It is not a problem, obviously you just keep your foot planted and hold on And the tighter the turn the more obvious the oversteer. Interesting experience the first few times. This has almost completely gone, only very very occasionally is there lift off over-steer and certainly nowhere near as strong as when newly fitted.

3) Firm steering: This has been said before, but the front ATB does add weight to the feel of the steering. It is not horrid by any standard, in fact it has the feeling of positive resistance . The steering is slightly heavier but either I am now used to it and have grown bigger biceps or the effect has lessened a bit

4) Return to centre: Also been said before. I like this additional return to steering centre. It is not scary but as above has a lovely positive feel. Still a lovely positive return to centre, but less strong

5) Fast road: Well obviously within speed limits and the Defenders capability The ATBs are superbly invisible at speed, as you'd perhaps expect. But when you do have to plant the accelerator pedal whilst at speed to overtake there is no hesitation and the grip is marvellous. Feels planted. As above, still superb at speed and in all conditions. There are times when I swear I can feel the power being directed to different corners. Interesting feeling, nothing worrisome.

6) Braking: I am not sure how the mechanics of this works, perhaps someone can enlighten me. The old girl appears to be stopping much much better. By that I mean shorter distances, straighter and it is almost impossible to lock up the wheels. It must be the transference of power L and R across the axle. I do wonder if this is going to accelerate brake disc and pad wear in the long run. But it is definitely something I can live with, the braking feels much more positive. The improved braking has continued and the effectiveness was picked up at the MOT, even on 6 year old rubber.

7) Gravel/Cobble tracks: Good lord above what a superb level of grip. Now Miffy has always been excellent on gravel tracks, never had much to complain about. She just bimbled along them every now and again into difflock and out again. But the difference is another level above this. Honestly the old adage of "low, difflock, 3rd - go anywhere" should be re-written for us ATB bods. Super levels of traction. Super confident. But, it extends beyond that because slow cobble descents Still excellent, if anything better now there are a few more 1000 miles on the ATBs, breaking in nicely I would say.

Low and slow: I do like to go low and slow, engine braking down long scrabbly descents. I like the control and technicality of wheel placement. With the ATBs it is another level of control whilst going low and slow. Yes the steering is a tad heavier, but the additional cross axle traction is worth it. Super slow and controlled. Such a great addition. This is an interesting one as the only really low and slow driving I have done recently has been the manoeuvring of the 19ft trailer on both tarmac and gravel/mud tracks. Love trailer driving in low gears and the ATBs behaved in a controlled and predictable fashion. If anything the extra traction in low over muddy terrain is vastly improved and a delight when hauling a trailer. In some situations where pre-ATBs I would engage low and centre diff-lock there is no need anymore and the bonus of the tighter turning circle is a huge bonus on tight lanes and gateways


Well, I hope that is of interest. I do wonder what a third ATB in the LT230 would be like and how it cooked improve the drivetrain any further than the two final drive ATBs already have. Incremental gains perhaps... Might have to build an LT230 next just to see

geobloke wrote:

geobloke wrote:

Two weeks on and I am still getting used to the ATBs. The difference is quite remarkable, but there are a few observations worth noting at this early stage. Miffy has covered 6-700 miles covering all grades of main roads and a number of green lanes as well.

Vehicle: Miffy is a 2003 TD5 110 CSW without ABS/TC. She has a moderate engine tweak. She does have a full roll cage and ARBs front and rear. Sitting on 285/75/16 AT tyres. She is not the heaviest, but she's no lightweight.

Observations

1) Quick junction pull off: This has been transformed. Previously the old girl would spin one front wheel if you gave the pedal a little poke and especially in the wet or cold. No longer. Mirrors. Signal. Shoot of the line... No wheel spinning. Positive acceleration. So much safer.

2) Lift off oversteer: Yikes, that was a surprise, not sure I have read about this one. This happens as you are turning into a corner and lift off a tad. With an open diff you'd understeer and power on out of the corner. But with the ATB in the front the reverse happens. It is not a problem, obviously you just keep your foot planted and hold on And the tighter the turn the more obvious the oversteer. Interesting experience the first few times.

3) Firm steering: This has been said before, but the front ATB does add weight to the feel of the steering. It is not horrid by any standard, in fact it has the feeling of positive resistance .

4) Return to centre: Also been said before. I like this additional return to steering centre. It is not scary but as above has a lovely positive feel.

5) Fast road: Well obviously within speed limits and the Defenders capability The ATBs are superbly invisible at speed, as you'd perhaps expect. But when you do have to plant the accelerator pedal whilst at speed to overtake there is no hesitation and the grip is marvellous. Feels planted.

6) Braking: I am not sure how the mechanics of this works, perhaps someone can enlighten me. The old girl appears to be stopping much much better. By that I mean shorter distances, straighter and it is almost impossible to lock up the wheels. It must be the transference of power L and R across the axle. I do wonder if this is going to accelerate brake disc and pad wear in the long run. But it is definitely something I can live with, the braking feels much more positive.

7) Gravel/Cobble tracks: Good lord above what a superb level of grip. Now Miffy has always been excellent on gravel tracks, never had much to complain about. She just bimbled along them every now and again into difflock and out again. But the difference is another level above this. Honestly the old adage of "low, difflock, 3rd - go anywhere" should be re-written for us ATB bods. Super levels of traction. Super confident. But, it extends beyond that because slow cobble descents

Low and slow: I do like to go low and slow, engine braking down long scrabbly descents. I like the control and technicality of wheel placement. With the ATBs it is another level of control whilst going low and slow. Yes the steering is a tad heavier, but the additional cross axle traction is worth it. Super slow and controlled. Such a great addition.


So, take what you will from that two week review. I believe the steering is lightening slightly as the front diff is becoming used, it feels more transparent than it did initially. The rear is completely invisible. I cannot wait to see how Miffy does over the winter period, we get some incredibly variable conditions here in darkest Denbighshire and is one of the reasons for the for fitting the ATBs. Do I still wish I had ABS and TC.... Hmmm... Less so I think. I would love to drive a Defender with ATBs and TC out of curiosity. I have in the past toyed around with retrofitting ABS and TC to Miffy. It is not a dreadfully difficult thing to do, involved yes, but not impossible. But, I am a bloke who thoroughly enjoys the simplicity of mechanical components and I seriously doubt I would consider retrofitting ABS/TC anymore. Or at least if I do crave ABS/TC it will be for the challenge rather than the requirement, if that makes sense.

Lets see how things go from here

It has been almost 6 months since fitting both ATBs into Miffys axles and I thought I would go back through the earlier observations, see if anything has changed.

First off though, Miffy has now covered 3-4000 miles since fitting the ATBs and again a real mixture of surfaces, distances and loads. She has been loaded up to the roof-line and a full roof rack when we moved house and has carried out some decent towing with a 19ft tri-axle Ifor Williams plant trailer. All of which she just took in her stride. She has passed her first MOT with the ATBs installed with no problems at all, in fact the tester complimented her on how well she drove. Which is always nice to hear. It is also getting close to her Spring service so it will be a full oils flush and re-grease. She deserves it, the trooper.

So to the observations:

Observations

1) Quick junction pull off: This has been transformed. Previously the old girl would spin one front wheel if you gave the pedal a little poke and especially in the wet or cold. No longer. Mirrors. Signal. Shoot of the line... No wheel spinning. Positive acceleration. So much safer. Still enjoying this part of the ATB life. Such a good feeling not having a tyre break loose.

2) Lift off oversteer: Yikes, that was a surprise, not sure I have read about this one. This happens as you are turning into a corner and lift off a tad. With an open diff you'd understeer and power on out of the corner. But with the ATB in the front the reverse happens. It is not a problem, obviously you just keep your foot planted and hold on And the tighter the turn the more obvious the oversteer. Interesting experience the first few times. This has almost completely gone, only very very occasionally is there lift off over-steer and certainly nowhere near as strong as when newly fitted.

3) Firm steering: This has been said before, but the front ATB does add weight to the feel of the steering. It is not horrid by any standard, in fact it has the feeling of positive resistance . The steering is slightly heavier but either I am now used to it and have grown bigger biceps or the effect has lessened a bit

4) Return to centre: Also been said before. I like this additional return to steering centre. It is not scary but as above has a lovely positive feel. Still a lovely positive return to centre, but less strong

5) Fast road: Well obviously within speed limits and the Defenders capability The ATBs are superbly invisible at speed, as you'd perhaps expect. But when you do have to plant the accelerator pedal whilst at speed to overtake there is no hesitation and the grip is marvellous. Feels planted. As above, still superb at speed and in all conditions. There are times when I swear I can feel the power being directed to different corners. Interesting feeling, nothing worrisome.

6) Braking: I am not sure how the mechanics of this works, perhaps someone can enlighten me. The old girl appears to be stopping much much better. By that I mean shorter distances, straighter and it is almost impossible to lock up the wheels. It must be the transference of power L and R across the axle. I do wonder if this is going to accelerate brake disc and pad wear in the long run. But it is definitely something I can live with, the braking feels much more positive. The improved braking has continued and the effectiveness was picked up at the MOT, even on 6 year old rubber.

7) Gravel/Cobble tracks: Good lord above what a superb level of grip. Now Miffy has always been excellent on gravel tracks, never had much to complain about. She just bimbled along them every now and again into difflock and out again. But the difference is another level above this. Honestly the old adage of "low, difflock, 3rd - go anywhere" should be re-written for us ATB bods. Super levels of traction. Super confident. But, it extends beyond that because slow cobble descents Still excellent, if anything better now there are a few more 1000 miles on the ATBs, breaking in nicely I would say.

Low and slow: I do like to go low and slow, engine braking down long scrabbly descents. I like the control and technicality of wheel placement. With the ATBs it is another level of control whilst going low and slow. Yes the steering is a tad heavier, but the additional cross axle traction is worth it. Super slow and controlled. Such a great addition. This is an interesting one as the only really low and slow driving I have done recently has been the manoeuvring of the 19ft trailer on both tarmac and gravel/mud tracks. Love trailer driving in low gears and the ATBs behaved in a controlled and predictable fashion. If anything the extra traction in low over muddy terrain is vastly improved and a delight when hauling a trailer. In some situations where pre-ATBs I would engage low and centre diff-lock there is no need anymore and the bonus of the tighter turning circle is a huge bonus on tight lanes and gateways


Well, I hope that is of interest. I do wonder what a third ATB in the LT230 would be like and how it cooked improve the drivetrain any further than the two final drive ATBs already have. Incremental gains perhaps... Might have to build an LT230 next just to see