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22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3149

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Keswick Green

Zagato wrote:
Hard truths Dan but you always new the business was going to be VERY hit and miss until consistent work was secured. It was a big gamble and a leap of faith to pack in your job and take on the huge mortgage size costs. I'm afraid I couldn't see how it was going to ever work out unless you found regular reliable work which I mentioned at the time.

The successful model I was trying to steer you onto was Paul who whilst keeping his day job, bought an older TD5 and a trailer and started to do a few jobs and make contacts. As his network of business increased he phased out his old job and built up some capital to improve the vehicles he had. The repayments on his vehicles was always kept low and manageable and finally he was able to get new vehicles. TD5's will do 250,000 as you know (his last did!) and if maintained properly they are quite reliable of course. It would have avoided the crippling repayment charges.

Forget complaining about small print, they don't owe you anything, bottom line is that the money needs to be repaid which hopefully you can do ASAP to get yourself out of this predicament.

To be more positive, you could still do it perhaps, you have made contacts since starting the business. Take a part time job, buy a TD5 etc and build the business up gradually

No I have no intention of "trying again" with the business, it was right to learn from it and move on.

You are right that legally they do not owe me anything, but MORALLY they do, that's the point. It IS the equivalent of someone with a fire extinguisher simply deciding not to put the fire out - they have the means to, and the power to, but choose not to. And they said they were going to...I can't work out how to see it in any other way.

We are all in different situations here, some folks for whatever reason can buy their Defenders in one lump sum, others have to work to pay for them, I'm not complaining about that, but the "I'm alright jack" attitude expressed by some is frankly offensive. Perhaps ZeDefender and I see things in a very similar way, it's just not in my nature to not help people if I can, be it pulling someone out of a snowdrift, or lending them a few quid - and I think its socially irresponsible of lenders to take a hard-line attitude with people. My partner used to work in debt resolution and she tells me that these debt collector types really are the lowest of the low, with no moral scruples, its all on commission you see, they would probably lose money if they made a compromise with me, so again, its the "I'm alright jack" attitude at work. 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

8th Feb 2012 7:59pm

22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3149

ZeDefender wrote:
CR wrote:
I agree with this it is no different than you going into a shop and walking out with a bottle of milk and not paying.

Isn't it more like the shop keeper telling you he'll put the milk on your account until the end of the week and then sending his brother round with a baseball bat because you were hospitalised at the weekend and couldn't pay until Monday morning?
One of the things I like about Germany, incredible though it may seem, is that most organisations are reasonable and make efforts to understand a situation. When finance/mortgage etc. companies act like arseholes, their shareholders might get a rich a bit quicker but the effects on individuals ("serves them right") can be devastating and knock-on to society as a whole (having to deal with homelessness, crime, depression etc.)
Living in a decent society means looking after each other (the "good'ns at least) - dishing out social security when it's all gone wrong for people is just burying the dead...
I'm not religious but I think Jesus got a few things right...

Mellow Matt

Well said Matt, I agree.

2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

8th Feb 2012 8:01pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20380

Another thing that annoys me with this country and business is that unless your a massive business with a large turnover then your supply, stock or supplies cost a lot more unless you buy large quantity's. How are small business supposed to cope if you do not have the means in the first place to shell out with the risk of no return with such uncertainty right now. I am self employed with my own business with good pay and up until early this year regular work and pay and then just nothing for a few months.... Where is the help from the government? You enter into agreements with by far adequate income to pay but self employment isn't fully reliable. But if you are self employed in a certain specific line of work and you don't get any through then what.... sorry but

country now where it's nothing but big money and foreigners for cheap work that's wanted. Last but not least it's not what you know but who you know genuine hard working people are refused work for people often over qualified that actually don't know in practice what they're doing. Downward spiral me thinks. Rant over

8th Feb 2012 8:03pm

davew

Member Since: 02 Jan 2012
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 888

1990 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Auto Rioja Red

I suspect most people understand where you're coming from and have some sympathy for you. At the end of the day the finance company have stuck to the contract, you haven't. They gave you the money so you could buy a vehicle, presumably secured solely on the vehicle, you signed to say that in return you would pay the money back over an agreed period. Legally I don't see how you can then say the finance company have broken that contract ? You're the one that has broken that agreement, not them.

It'd be nice to think that the finance company would give you the benefit of the doubt and use their option to give you a breather, however, it's their choice, not yours unfortunately. They're not doing anything legally wrong by insisting you stick to the original agreement, I hope you can some to an agreement with them that suits both parties. I would imagine that these days they'll be a lot harder to convince of your genuine circumstances than they would have been a few years ago, they probably have to deal with "genuine" defaulters on a daily basis.

8th Feb 2012 8:08pm

shaun.mobile

Member Since: 12 Dec 2011
Location: England
Posts: 156

2011 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Fuji White

22900013A

sorry to hear about your financial difficulties.

not sure if you are aware but the F.S.A. introduced a little thing called T.C.F. (Treating Customers Fairly) a good few years ago and it all revolves around 6 outcomes.

Outcome 1: Consumers can be confident that they are dealing with firms where the fair treatment of customers is central to the corporate culture;

Outcome 2: Products and services marketed and sold in the retail market are designed to meet the needs of identified consumer groups and are targeted accordingly;

Outcome 3: Consumers are provided with clear information and are kept appropriately informed before, during and after the point of sale;

Outcome 4: Where consumers receive advice, the advice is suitable and takes account of their circumstances;

Outcome 5: Consumers are provided with products that perform as firms have led them to expect, and the associated service is both of an acceptable standard and as they have been led to expect;

Outcome 6: consumers do not face unreasonable post-sale barriers imposed by firms to change product, switch provider, submit a claim or make a complaint.

all companies that are regulated by the F.S.A. have to be able to demonstrate that they are adhering to these.

i use these frequently when dealing with regulated companies that try to ride roughshod over me.

next time they ring ask for the name of the person you are speaking to, ask them again about extending the repayment period and if you get the same answer as before, then ask them what they know about T.C.F.

whatever answer you get, then ask them if they can tell you what T.C.F. Outcome 5 is, (this seems to be the one that they have breached). they probably won't be able to tell you.

you can then tell them that you want to make a complaint.

they have to acknowledge this and try to resolve your complaint within (from memory) 48 hours. if they cannot resolve it they have to report it to the F.S.A. as a complaint. if they can resolve it it gets treated as a query.

you can complain that you feel that their agreement breached T.C.F. by being misleading in its claims.

they will have to deal officially with this if they cannot resolve it to your satisfaction within the 48 hours.

once they have dealt with it (which may mean agreeing to your request) you have the option of taking your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman. regardless of the outcome of this the Financial Ombudsman will charge the finance company £500 for dealing with the complaint so if nothing else you get the satisfaction fo knowing that it has cost them to treat you badly.

hope this helps.

8th Feb 2012 8:17pm

pom

Member Since: 01 Jun 2010
Location: Worcester
Posts: 1343

I do sypmathise. For whats its worth I'd sell the truck pronto and get out of the debt.

Don't waste money time and effort on solicitors/FSA they aint going to make the repayments for you.

If you dont have enough equity in the truck to clear the loan try and get a 18month 0% card and use that to pay off the remainder so at least your not racking up interest.

Pom

8th Feb 2012 8:20pm

Ed2

Member Since: 11 Oct 2010
Location: North Essex
Posts: 79

pom wrote:
I do sypmathise. For whats its worth I'd sell the truck pronto and get out of the debt.

Don't waste money time and effort on solicitors/FSA they aint going to make the repayments for you.

If you dont have enough equity in the truck to clear the loan try and get a 18month 0% card and use that to pay off the remainder so at least your not racking up interest.

Pom

I agree with Pom. I should think the reason the finance co aren't offering you a holiday for repayments is that if they did everyone else would want one too. I hope you manage to get it sorted soon.

8th Feb 2012 8:38pm

ZeDefender

Member Since: 15 Sep 2011
Location: Munich
Posts: 4731

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Baltic Blue

Great advice from Shaun and Pom - good luck

Tell someone you love them today because life is short.
But shout it at them in German because life is also terrifying and confusing...

8th Feb 2012 8:44pm

CR

Member Since: 28 Jan 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 947

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Santorini Black

Zedefender I think you might have a point about the milk !but I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, yes the milk was on credit and then as you said there was a problem which meant that the bill could not be paid until after the weekend. I think by Tuesday you would resell the milk to pay back the loan as you did not use it. Better to offload the milk before it goes SOUR and down in value. It goes back to my point need and want. the milk was not needed as you were in hospital for the weekend and so should of been sold on Saturday morning.

How you think you could make money by buying and selling milk which such large overheads is beyond me.

"but MORALLY they do," COMPLETE RUBBISH they owe nothing other than the contract you signed. Morals do not come into this but your point about helping someone on a personal level is of course correct.

"One of the things I like about Germany, incredible though it may seem, is that most organisations are reasonable and make efforts to understand a situation." Rubbish the German banks are the ones getting every euro back from the Irish people.

"dishing out social security"-- abused by most people who are on it !! you hear the word "entitled" from them all the time

rant over I am going to watch telly

8th Feb 2012 9:17pm

JSG

Member Since: 12 Jul 2007
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 2412

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey

ZeDefender wrote:
What would make the world less of a mess is if people (including those in companies) were reasonable and tried to help each other.

Call me a hippie - I dare you

Hippy

John

http://www.hampshire4x4response.co.uk

2011 Tdci 110 CSW XS

8th Feb 2012 9:21pm

ZeDefender

Member Since: 15 Sep 2011
Location: Munich
Posts: 4731

How I love this forum

Tell someone you love them today because life is short.
But shout it at them in German because life is also terrifying and confusing...

8th Feb 2012 9:43pm

22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3149

davew wrote:
I suspect most people understand where you're coming from and have some sympathy for you. At the end of the day the finance company have stuck to the contract, you haven't. They gave you the money so you could buy a vehicle, presumably secured solely on the vehicle, you signed to say that in return you would pay the money back over an agreed period. Legally I don't see how you can then say the finance company have broken that contract ? You're the one that has broken that agreement, not them.

It'd be nice to think that the finance company would give you the benefit of the doubt and use their option to give you a breather, however, it's their choice, not yours unfortunately. They're not doing anything legally wrong by insisting you stick to the original agreement, I hope you can some to an agreement with them that suits both parties. I would imagine that these days they'll be a lot harder to convince of your genuine circumstances than they would have been a few years ago, they probably have to deal with "genuine" defaulters on a daily basis.

I did not say that legally they were in the wrong by not helping me, but i do think they are by stating in writing that they can and then refusing to do so, by harassing me by telephone, and by failing to respond adequately to the letter I send them. In my eyes they have lied to me, I have been honest enough with them after all.

if they help me out everyone would want help - well I can kind of see that point, but a better solution would be that they don't offer to help anyone. Its clear in the contact then that if you default the car gets repossessed, end of. I would probably have looked at a different manufacturer had that been written there. They state in black and white that if you ring up they will help you - this is another lie. They should not be sending me a letter offering something they have no intention of supplying!

Them being right or wrong certainly won't stop me venturing my opinion of them and if people don't take out finance with Landrover to buy their products then that can only be a good thing.

I have written to Landrover (well, I have yet to print and post it but you get my point) and I wonder how they will feel knowing these bozos ring up claiming to be "calling from Landrover" when they aren't.

Thankyou especially to Shaun for your excellent post re FSA - I shall be sure to make use of it!

Oh, and as to selling the vehicle, I would have to get their permission to do so, which they can refuse to give. Do you think I would waste my breath asking? 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

8th Feb 2012 9:46pm

22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3149

CR wrote:
Zedefender I think you might have a point about the milk !but I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, yes the milk was on credit and then as you said there was a problem which meant that the bill could not be paid until after the weekend. I think by Tuesday you would resell the milk to pay back the loan as you did not use it. Better to offload the milk before it goes SOUR and down in value. It goes back to my point need and want. the milk was not needed as you were in hospital for the weekend and so should of been sold on Saturday morning.

How you think you could make money by buying and selling milk which such large overheads is beyond me.

"but MORALLY they do," COMPLETE RUBBISH they owe nothing other than the contract you signed. Morals do not come into this but your point about helping someone on a personal level is of course correct.

A contract which states that in the event of default they will try to help - as they are not prepared to do so when it is raised with them, they are in breach of contact, are they not? Were things to go further (not that they will) it won't look good on them that they refused the compromise offer. Nothing is guaranteed of course, but it's still a valid point.

Morals of course DO come into any business transaction, or at least they should, and the world would be a better place if they did. Scumbags like David Cameron might think otherwise but I think the rest of us do try to be as moral as we can be. Personally I think usery/interest should be illegal, the idea of getting money for nothing really doesn't float my boat, and the sooner our society moves on from its obsession with wealth and money the better for all of us. 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

8th Feb 2012 9:51pm

ickle

Member Since: 22 Jul 2010
Location: South Vendee
Posts: 1782

2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Alpine White

Well I hope that Dan can get things resolved, I'm a bit old school, started with old kit I saved for, spent all hours working then extra hours fixing it when it went wrong, still do to a certain extent - best of luck anyway and Poms idea of a CC 0% probably has good merit.

As for Shauns post - what a star!, I never knew it existed and have already emailed DAS insurance over their ongoing lack of anything resembling help - I think they've failed on 4 of the 6 outcomes and I've told them so!

Keith

8th Feb 2012 10:06pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20380

Morals of course DO come into any business transaction, or at least they should, and the world would be a better place if they did. Scumbags like David Cameron might think otherwise but I think the rest of us do try to be as moral as we can be. Personally I think usery/interest should be illegal, the idea of getting money for nothing really doesn't float my boat, and the sooner our society moves on from its obsession with wealth and money the better for all of us.[/quote]

Just about sums it all up.

Wish you the best of luck my friend

Steve

8th Feb 2012 10:13pm

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