XplusYplusZ wrote:

Did I understand correctly that the rear seats don't fold flat..!? He didn't take the headrests off and drop the seats with the bench up.. they must fold flat, right? Or this is a major inconvenience.

LandymanStefan wrote:

While i agree with his points about the lock to lock steering and unladen weight, i think hes been extremely harsh on it for a brand new vehicle. Im not sure if his associations with LR have anything to do with it but i dont think ive ever seen him be so negative about any vehicle. I know he was never a fan of the original defender so maybe this is just continuing the theme. For starters he quotes the prices wrong and in the harrys garage video says there's only the trailmaster and fielmaster variants for £70k when you can actually buy the basic stationwagon for £58k.

I also think pitching it against the new LR defender is the wrong car to put it up against, the defender has become a lifestyle luxury suv, I dont think we'll ever see many of them being offroaded and overlanded, its not the sort of platform that lends itself to modification, adaptation, easy repairs and to be built for your individual needs. I would be putting it up against a wrangler (£60k start price) Or a good used g wagon (Around £50k) or outside of europe the 70 series cruisers.

Part of me thinks he doesnt actually understand who this is aimed at or has very limited knowledge into the offroad/overland community. To say manually switchable locking diffs is a flaw is almost laughable. Sure if youre clueless having a computer react to an issue and lock your diff is ok however anyone knowledgeable would prefer to pre empt the obstacle and lock up prior to hitting it, also taking the computer out of the equation is a bonus in my eyes.

I think the only comparable brand new vehicle on the market in europe at the moment is the wrangler, in terms of build, design and purpose. Although the wrangler isnt intended for commercial use like the grenadier. I can only see benefits of having the grenadier on the market as competition. I will have to take one for a test drive at some point to see what all the fuss is about with the foot rest.

Firstly, I agree that I don't think I've ever seen HM so harsh on a new production vehicle, other than his thoughts on the old def and probably the plug-in rr sport he had as a long termer a few years ago. But I think a lot of the criticism is valid.

Re price discrepancy; I think they're the only ones you can get a hold of atm, certainly every car I've seen in the UK's been either the Trail or Fieldmaster (I ran into the Highland Launch vehicles up north and I go past a dealership down south regularly). Quite rightly to, they're a newer manufacturer with years off DevEx to recuperate. Why fill precious early build slots with base spec trucks for ROW markets when for not a lot more £/unit you can sell a truck for £15-50k more and only ship it from France to UK. Also, Ford famously used to double the profitability of the Escort buy simply selling the upgraded stereo system, margins are tight on most new cars... This' become even more obvious over the last few years with the introduction of 'first editions' (New Def even had one) these are model runs specifically created to maximise the profitably of the early units & have a secondary bonus of stress testing the new production lines, e.g. can we fit accessory bars and heated seats to a unit going down the line as fast as one optioned without these?

Bringing it back, so while there's technically Station Wagon listed, go find one on a dealer lot? BMW still had base spec 3 & 5 series on steelies and wheel trims til not that long ago theoretically, but alloys was a 'mandatory option' ticked for you in the UK since the e30. Therefore, I think old Harry going it starts at 68K's fair, same as he pointed out that they've already upped the price / changed the model range of the defender.

Secondly, I think pitching it against the new defender is justified; same 'price', same ability, and generally marketed at the same groups of buyers. Re 'will we see them in the wilderness', you'd be genuinely amazed how many new defenders I see doing old fashion 'land rover work'. On AT tyres, dragging multi-axle ifor williams trailers up and down the UK, now they're just more comfortable, more economical and don't so crawl up long steep roads Is it the majority of them, no, but certainly more than I thought I would see. I think we'll only see more as well when 'buyers remorse' wears down between the owners. E.g. didn't see many top spec D2 being off roaded until they were several owners deep and only a couple of grand, the owner now no longer cares about a few scratches and starts to appreciate the vehicles for their ability rather than the unavoidable price tag atm.

Also, the Ineos has enough complicated electronics to leave you as stranded as a new defender, a wrangler, bronco, LC Amazon or the v8 70 series all have computers these days (very few markets even allow the selling of the 'UN-spec', non-turbo , non-ecu 70 series). But even with LR's questionable reliability around electronics, LR, Jeep, Ford and Toyota are long established OEMs so would probably trust their ability to build a reliable car over a brand new manufacturer with hardware coming together in an entirely novel package. I wasn't on the BMW team who designed the B57 but I don't imagine the shock loading from a fully locked up pair of solid live axles featured highly in their use cases, and other than EMEA buyers I'm not entirely sure who the B58 engine's aimed at.

Despite this full-bore reply though I'm still keen to have a good poke round one etc. Also, don't get me wrong I love the charm of my old defender but it is objectively toss at most things required from a car. Neither do I try claim to be a world renowned explorer, so if I was to immediately set off across some inhospitable waste land I think I'd take steyr puch 300gd 'barn-door' Troopy, on high profile, skinny tyres. Mostly because that was the last time someone tried copying and beating Land Rover / Toyota at their own game and they spent 30 years refining it, they're a lot more than the competition but the build quality is awe-inspiring.

PS soz Stefan, I'm bored sat on a train lol 2001 Defender 90 Td5 County Station Wagon

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