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Cooperracer05

Member Since: 07 Nov 2020
Location: Sussex
Posts: 98

TD5 hard to start when stood / cold - running out of ideas

Hoping for some fresh ideas on what to do next...

I have a TD5 that was rebuilt 2K (9 months ago). Over the past 6 weeks, after being stood for a day or two, it is becoming increasingly hard to fire when starting. It cranks great but wont catch, almost as if it has lack of fuel. Eventually it will catch and run fine. Once it has been started, it will restart on the button for that day until it is left over night again. The problem seems to be getting worse as the weather gets colder although that could be unrelated correlation and not an actual cause.

Once started, the car runs smoothly, no overheating etc.

When I purge the fuel system this makes no difference to the starting issue.

The engine was rebuilt be someone I trust and has lots of experience (not a cowboy) it also has run fine since I got it back.

things I have changed:

- New fuel pump 2K miles ago when engine was rebuilt - VDO. Not making any strange noises.
- New air bleed valve
- Solved a small diesel leak from the outside front fuel filter connector
- New battery
- ECU red plug not covered in oil
- Not getting a noticeable rise in oil level on dipstick
- Starter motor was refurbed when engine was rebuilt
- I have unplugged the MAF and the car runs better (more torque and driveability) but starting issue still present. Haven't replaced the MAF yet but don't expect a new MAF to suddenly solve the issue

Do I just go ahead and do the injector seals?

Any other ideas?

12th Dec 2022 11:40am

excossack

Member Since: 22 Feb 2012
Location: North West
Posts: 5843

1999 Defender 110 Td5 SW Caledonian Blue

My TD5 was always lumpy/hard start when cold.
I had tried a few bits.
For me the last ditch attempt was replace injector seals and I got the timing checked.
Apparently according to the garage I used the timing was a fraction out.
Once reset and injector seals replaced, the car is smooth on startup from cold and not smokey. 1999 Defender TD5 110

Regards
John M0VAZ
Econet Station 48 no clock

12th Dec 2022 11:50am

Cooperracer05

Member Since: 07 Nov 2020
Location: Sussex
Posts: 98

Thanks appreciate that...wonder how much of the fix was down to the seals vs. the timing! My seals were changed 2K miles ago so should be fine but also could be the issue...

Think I will check the connections to the fuel pump relay etc. too....as I found a thread that talked about that issue.

Other things are going to be to clean up the crank position and fuel temp sensors

12th Dec 2022 11:53am

excossack

Member Since: 22 Feb 2012
Location: North West
Posts: 5843

I think it was more timing in my case. 1999 Defender TD5 110

Regards
John M0VAZ
Econet Station 48 no clock

12th Dec 2022 11:56am

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4410

What a pain

I suspect there aren't many TD5 owners that haven't been through this very irritating problem.

The good news is that when started, shut off it starts on the button which tells me that the CPS is unlikely to be at fault.

Have you plugged the ECU to look for fault codes?

You are right, it does sound like there is a fuel issue and the things to check are:

For Miffy this issue was down to the fuel filter housing. Smallest amount of corrosion allowing some air through and the fuel to return to the tank. Then it happened again after fitting a brand new Britpart starter motor. Darned thing was so electrically noisy that it interfered with the CPS signal and prevented the firing of the engine. It also threw up noisy CPS fault codes. Swapped to a Denso starter motor and it hasn't been a problem since. I tell you that because if during your rebuild you swapped the starter it might be that, but check your fault codes first.

12th Dec 2022 11:59am

Cooperracer05

Member Since: 07 Nov 2020
Location: Sussex
Posts: 98

Thanks for your sympathy and solidarity!

It is typical that the car is not working well just as the snow arrived...my wife is loving being able to me this was it's only chance to impress her and it is broken...again!

Really appreciate the list below:

Fuel pump - Unlikely if replaced recently - yeh it is new VDO, it sounds very smooth and quiet and once started, she purrs along

Under-seat relays (open these up and check they are not too corroded) - will do, good shout

Fuel filter housing corrosion between outlets and housing. - I have had 3 out of the 4 off and cleaned up the mating surface. Also given it a good wash and it doesnt look terribly corroded but it could be an issue. Expenmsive little b*ggers to change.

Fuel pressure regulator dripping diesel - this was a new OEM one with the rebuild 2K miles aho, I have inspected it really closely and it is dry as a bone

Engine oil rising - Injector o-rings and/or copper seals - doesnt seem to be rising but I dont use the car much....will keep an eye on it. I may just swap them over so I can tick it off the list.

Wear on the engine loom close to the engine. Some TD5s suffer from enough to break or wear through to the internal copper. - good shout....although would expect it to be more intermittent but perhaps not.

Injector loom - Unlikely but worth replacing and sealing with silicone. This hasnt been replaced but my red ECU plug is dry and clean so had ruled this out.

12th Dec 2022 1:17pm

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4410

No problem. This sort of fault is always tough and frustrating to track down and fix.

With the engine loom run your hands over its entire length, a rub can be a tricky thing to find. The intermittentancy can be brought on by sudden drops in temperature causing the loom to contract slightly closer to the vibrating engine. Possibly just enough to break connections or earthing to the block.

I know it is an extravagance but I highly highly recommend replacing the standard (or OEM) fuel filter housing with one fro GORE. It is relatively expensive, but worth every penny of the price. In particular the outlet/inlet mating surfaces are much more positive than the original and less chance of a bad seal. You do not need to replace the brass outlets, just clean them up with some vinegar, replace the washers and job done.

Out of interest were the glow plugs checked and replaced during the rebuild, or just swapped over?

12th Dec 2022 2:44pm

Cooperracer05

Member Since: 07 Nov 2020
Location: Sussex
Posts: 98

Thanks so much!

I'm not sure about the glow plugs but i did read they do t really do much and a TD5 should start fine without them...

12th Dec 2022 2:55pm

Cooperracer05

Member Since: 07 Nov 2020
Location: Sussex
Posts: 98

geobloke wrote:

For Miffy this issue was down to the fuel filter housing. Smallest amount of corrosion allowing some air through and the fuel to return to the tank. Then it happened again after fitting a brand new Britpart starter motor. Darned thing was so electrically noisy that it interfered with the CPS signal and prevented the firing of the engine. It also threw up noisy CPS fault codes. Swapped to a Denso starter motor and it hasn't been a problem since. I tell you that because if during your rebuild you swapped the starter it might be that, but check your fault codes first.

Missed this bit - I had the starter motor refurbed when the engine was rebuilt so hoping that isn't the issue although it could be....I may just buy the GORE housing, it isnt as expensive as the OEM one and looks snazzy!....it REALLY feels like air is creeping into the system and given the injector seals were done in May I don't think it is that.

Maybe I should take the old fuel filter housing off and give it a really good clean and inspect...I have only given it a clean in situ and its hard to really get a proper look.

12th Dec 2022 3:05pm

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4410

Cooperracer05 wrote:
Thanks so much!

I'm not sure about the glow plugs but i did read they do t really do much and a TD5 should start fine without them...

Really it should and being as yours has been rebuilt and I assume has had its piston rings replaced then your compression should be excellent. The glow plugs do make a difference and especially when starting from sub-zero. It is noticeable that Miffy stays on glow for much longer when the temp drops below zero and it must help because she starts on the button at 225k miles old and idles beautifully. Sorry that is probably a little insensitive given this thread...

12th Dec 2022 3:18pm

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4410

Cooperracer05 wrote:
geobloke wrote:

For Miffy this issue was down to the fuel filter housing. Smallest amount of corrosion allowing some air through and the fuel to return to the tank. Then it happened again after fitting a brand new Britpart starter motor. Darned thing was so electrically noisy that it interfered with the CPS signal and prevented the firing of the engine. It also threw up noisy CPS fault codes. Swapped to a Denso starter motor and it hasn't been a problem since. I tell you that because if during your rebuild you swapped the starter it might be that, but check your fault codes first.

Missed this bit - I had the starter motor refurbed when the engine was rebuilt so hoping that isn't the issue although it could be....I may just buy the GORE housing, it isnt as expensive as the OEM one and looks snazzy!....it REALLY feels like air is creeping into the system and given the injector seals were done in May I don't think it is that.

Maybe I should take the old fuel filter housing off and give it a really good clean and inspect...I have only given it a clean in situ and its hard to really get a proper look.

What else have you got to do on these dark evenings

It wouldn't hurt to take it off, strip it, clean it and inspect it. Never know it might be as simple as that. When you do have a good look for cracking in the housing. My first and original housing actually shattered in to three pieces one Winter and I have heard that some people have found hairline cracks in the housing.

Really all you have to do is check all these things off one at a time. It is a pity it is cold out and not mid-summer, but it is the only way.

12th Dec 2022 3:22pm

TexasRover

Member Since: 24 Nov 2022
Location: Paris
Posts: 1052

2002 Defender 110 Td5 DCPU Chawton White

I still think you should look at the pump performance. They do run find without the pump etc, but any air in the system (possibly from a poor connection and any issue with the pump surfaces. Did you disconnect the line to check for residual pressure (warm/cold) and healthy diesel flow?

My pump was poorly and I found about it when I changed the fuel cooler (leaking). Reconnected and no start, figured pump was bad as no sound and relay good so changed the pump (hole cut already so go figure..). Then still no start. Disconnected the fuel hose at the cooler and had my wife crank: no fuel. Did a bunch of trouble shooting to find that the hoses on the pump were cross fitted, probably by the previous owner. Swapped them over according to the diagram - this is a complicated system - and presto perfect flow of diesel at the cooler. Reconnected and satisfying flushing gurgling sound, then on button start every time since.

I had driven the car for a few months including some mountain trips with basically a broken and incorrectly connected fuel pump. Never really knew. Don't know how long the PO was having this or how he got it running, but this was Oman and you just don't want to know.. They touch it.. they mess it up, still chasing the electrics: butchers.

12th Dec 2022 3:24pm

Cooperracer05

Member Since: 07 Nov 2020
Location: Sussex
Posts: 98

Thanks, yeh I changed the pump myself and was super careful about putting the right hoses on the right way round but I could have easily not seated them quite right, that being said, the car has run absolutely fine for best part of 6 months, but sounds like you had a similar issue too.

So whip the connector off the fuel cooler and crank and see what comes out? Not a bad idea as presumably if that pumps straight out I can rule out everything back towards the pump and the housing

12th Dec 2022 3:55pm

Cooperracer05

Member Since: 07 Nov 2020
Location: Sussex
Posts: 98

geobloke wrote:
Cooperracer05 wrote:
geobloke wrote:

For Miffy this issue was down to the fuel filter housing. Smallest amount of corrosion allowing some air through and the fuel to return to the tank. Then it happened again after fitting a brand new Britpart starter motor. Darned thing was so electrically noisy that it interfered with the CPS signal and prevented the firing of the engine. It also threw up noisy CPS fault codes. Swapped to a Denso starter motor and it hasn't been a problem since. I tell you that because if during your rebuild you swapped the starter it might be that, but check your fault codes first.

Missed this bit - I had the starter motor refurbed when the engine was rebuilt so hoping that isn't the issue although it could be....I may just buy the GORE housing, it isnt as expensive as the OEM one and looks snazzy!....it REALLY feels like air is creeping into the system and given the injector seals were done in May I don't think it is that.

Maybe I should take the old fuel filter housing off and give it a really good clean and inspect...I have only given it a clean in situ and its hard to really get a proper look.

What else have you got to do on these dark evenings It wouldn't hurt to take it off, strip it, clean it and inspect it. Never know it might be as simple as that. When you do have a good look for cracking in the housing. My first and original housing actually shattered in to three pieces one Winter and I have heard that some people have found hairline cracks in the housing.

Really all you have to do is check all these things off one at a time. It is a pity it is cold out and not mid-summer, but it is the only way.

Here is a thought, if it is the fuel filter housing, wouldnt a system purge resolve it as it would essentially clear out the air in the same way that the car being run does? It starts fine after it has fired, but it doesnt start fine after a purge before it fires....makes me think it is in the engine not in the pipe system up to the head....

12th Dec 2022 3:58pm

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4410

If the priming happens to be passing a hole that air can be drawn into then perhaps it would be worse after a prime. Perhaps there is just more air distributed throughout the fuel in the rail. But after the engine has started and run there could be less because it has been purged back to the tank.

Perhaps...

As you say it is unlikely to be the injector seals given how new they are, not impossible, but unlikely.

12th Dec 2022 4:27pm

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