 | Home > Technical > Unusual starter motor fault |
 
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17384   
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That's interesting! Thank you.
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16th Nov 2022 7:22am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17384
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Thank you to all who have made suggestions, definitely some food for thought. If I do ever find out what the cause is, I will update the thread.
I can't help but think that this would be so much easier to diagnose if the starter wasn't so inaccessible! It would be interesting and revealing for example to observe the voltage on the supply to and output from the solenoid, but you can't even see the wretched thing, let alone easily connect a meter or logger! It is also one of those things which would be easier to diagnose if it wasn't intermittent. The switch is an interesting avenue of thought since it is the original (so also 15 years and 260k miles) so must by now be heavily worn (a failure would not be unexpected). If the starter switch directly switched the supply to the solenoid I could easily understand how it could cause my intermittent fault, but since the supply is relay controlled it is a little harder to understand. I shall think about this for a while and see what FMEA I can come up with for a switch fault. |
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16th Nov 2022 10:02am |
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| Organised Chaos Member Since: 20 Dec 2008 Location: Chesterfield Posts: 56 
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Also had a similar problem with my 2008 130 with intermittent starting worked fine for a couple of weeks then back to the impression that the battery was flat.
During the process of looking for the fault I fitted a new starter relay which worked fro a while, then had the starter motor changed which also worked for a while, then fitted a new battery and ignition switch and this did not work. A good friend of mine then mentioned get a jump lead and connect to the negative on the battery and the other end to the chassis and this worked perfect so that led me down the path of a bad earth connection somewhere, the negative from the battery went to the chassis and then to a bolt on the back of the transfer box and that was it, not the easiest job to clean the earth points. I then looked for an earth wire from the engine to the chassis and there wasn't one so made one up from a short piece of 70mm cable and ran it from the bell housing on the gearbox to the chassis and this fixed the problem.  Click image to enlarge |
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16th Nov 2022 10:48pm |
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| spudfan Member Since: 10 Sep 2007 Location: Co Donegal Posts: 4662 
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Our Puma 2008 decided not to start. The problem was solved but undoing the negative battery terminal clamp and pushing it as far down on the battery terminal as it would go then tightening it up. No more problems. I am not saying this is your issue but it will not cost anything to try it. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali 2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu 2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai |
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24th Nov 2022 9:53pm |
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| sako243 Member Since: 08 Jul 2014 Location: Wales Posts: 1218  
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My money would be on a dodgy starter / bad spot on the commutator inside. Due to the nature of the balance of pistons / cranks things always tend to settle in one of a few places.
I had this on my JCB where there was a worn spot on the commutator and it would often land on that. When you tried to start it there'd just be a click as the starter solenoid engaged (and thus pulled a decent amount of load from the battery) but nothing would happen in terms of cranking over. Basically it was a dodgy contact so not enough power would get to the actual starter for it to turn over. Cue wiggling the power shuttle lever lots and eventually it'd catch and you could get her fired up. (There's a neutral interlock on the power shuttle lever so it had the same effect as turning the key on and off, it was just easier). If your dash lights go out completely then that's normal because in the crank position the switch should normally disconnect almost all electrical loading (e.g. In a Tdi only the fuel cut off solenoid is left powered) in the vehicle to maximise the amount of power available for the starter. I and the previous owner of the JCB kept putting off replacing the starter because it was an absolute pig to get to. Eventually the solenoid failed on with me so that was the final straw and had to replace it. What a pig of a job particularly as I couldn't start it to get the loader arms propped up our of the way. Access was difficult even before you added 1" thick 18" tall steel plates down the side of the engine bay. Ed 82 Hotspur Sandringham 6x6 95 Defender 110 300Tdi |
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25th Nov 2022 7:45am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17384
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^^ Your thoughts and suspicions mirror my own.
It did it again the other day, and on this ocasion I did make a point of noting that ALL the dash lights go out, when cranking normally not all go out. Probably not significant though. On the latest occurrence, I tried cranking repeatedly over a period of about one minute, maybe two, and every time it was the flat-battery-like effect. I then thought I'd connect the jump leads to the spare charged battery I now have in the back for this reason, so dug out the battery and jump leads. Before I connected them I thought I'd give it one more try, and blow me if it didn't crank with vigour and start immediately. On the face of it, standing for about five minutes doing nothing completely changed the behaviour, but of course I don't know that it would have started if I had just tried once more initially! Such a pain when the fault is so intermittent!  |
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25th Nov 2022 8:51am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17384
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In view of the fact that the frequency of this happening seems to have been increasing, today I replaced the starter motor and while I was at it fitted a new battery. I can honestly say that replacing the starter on the 2.4 is as horrible and frustrating as any job I've yet done on it. It's not helped on my vehicle by the full width Entreq underbody protection which has to come off (along with the front ARB) but even so it is a 'mare! I came very close to cutting an access panel in the inner wing.
I haven't yet had the chance to strip and inspect the old motor, I may wait until the skin on the backs of my hands grows back before I do this. The battery I took out is indeed the original genuine LR battery from 2007, it's been in for 260k miles so has done well. |
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2nd Jan 2023 6:13pm |
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| spudfan Member Since: 10 Sep 2007 Location: Co Donegal Posts: 4662
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I wonder if the batteries in EV's will last as long! 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali 2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu 2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai |
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2nd Jan 2023 6:31pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17384
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I doubt it and they'll be much, much more expensive to replace!
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2nd Jan 2023 8:18pm |
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| spudfan Member Since: 10 Sep 2007 Location: Co Donegal Posts: 4662
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That feature does not appear in the advertising for electric cars.
 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali 2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu 2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai |
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2nd Jan 2023 9:29pm |
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| Pacha Member Since: 23 Feb 2020 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 772 
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In lieu of this I decided to hold off with my starter replacement and revisit the whole battery/earth situation. Looks like my 2.5 year old Yuasa battery (2 year warranty) has a dead cell and is not holding power properly overnight. I swapped it out with my original 2007 LR (Varta) after I charged it overnight and all is well. So, new Varta fitted yesterday (5 year warranty) and so far, no issues. Rgds. Chris |
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7th Jan 2023 10:08am |
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| Birdy Member Since: 07 Oct 2011 Location: Côte d'Azur Posts: 865  
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"I replaced the starter motor and while I was at it fitted a new battery"
Did you ever establish which of the two was causing the problem? Or both? Peter |
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9th Feb 2023 9:53am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17384
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No, sadly the problem with replacing two components at the same time is that you can never be sure which it was. I suspect the starter, I haven't yet had the time to strip the old one and inspect it, although this is on the "round tuit" list since it makes sense either to rebuild it as a spare or recycle it if it is not rebuildable.
What I can say, although it is tempting fate to do so, is that since changing the battery and starter the vehicle has started perfectly, it cranks much faster and fires much sooner (probably as a result of cranking quicker). The starter I fitted was not new, it was off my "spare" engine and therefore of unknown mileage. Prior to fitting it I stripped it completely, cleaned everything, and regreased the gearbox. The brushes were relatively unworn so I don't think the mileage was particularly high. I am intrigued that LR do not list the solenoid as a spare part (new starter needed) although I think Ford does list the solenoid. The other thing I will say is that on a Puma Defender changing the battery is much easier than changing the starter. I still have scabs on the backs of my hands from doing the starter, a thoroughly unpleasant and miserable job! |
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9th Feb 2023 10:09am |
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| I Like Old Skool Member Since: 23 Feb 2015 Location: Manchester Posts: 809 
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Ha....
Was about to pull the trigger on a new batt last week after a few sluggish starts on my 300tdi, but growing up and living close to the border of Yorkshire has resulted in me being 'frugal' with my expenditure and I remembered a case on one of my previous Landrovers where poor starting was caused by sticking brushes in the starter as a result of frequent wading in muddy ponds etc. Before committing the approx £100 to a new Varta G8 to replace the one I fitted around 8yrs ago I whipped off the starter and inspected the brushes. Nothing obviously wrong but maybe disturbing them freed one off because no hesitant starts since (although we haven't had such cold temps since). Starter removal, inspection and refit took less than 90 minutes, and I wasn't in a rush. 300tdi seems a lot easier than the 200tdi? I seem to remember having to drop the exhaust front pipe on my old 200tdi but 300tdi starter comes easily out the top way with just the turbo intake pipe removed. Piece of cake 
Will see how the battery performs for another month or two before I spend any cash...... |
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9th Feb 2023 10:32pm |
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