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Doc P

Member Since: 03 Apr 2016
Location: Midlands
Posts: 565

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Firenze Red

Heart still rules over head.

I haven't posted much recently. These past few months, the Defender has cost me dearly (literally). I thought I'd tell you all of the woe I've had. I actually came very close to getting rid of it, I have to confess - due to the frustration and expense. It's a long story, I'll warn you.

It all began in early October when she failed to start one morning completely out of the blue. I had to get it recovered to a local garage. The recovery guy said he thought the fuel pump had failed - you couldn't hear it activating on turning the ignition sequence to position 1 (it is normally obvious to hear).

The garage had a quick look, replaced the fuel filter and it started! I was told the 'pump may be on its way out but it was working for now'. I still couldn't hear it but, fair play, it did start and it drove fine.

Then, abruptly again, one morning it failed to start again. Recovered (again) to the same garage. This time, acknowledged that the pump was indeed knackered. Replaced it ('in tank' pump, as its a Puma 2.2) and found the turbo actuator was also coked-up beyond recovery so replaced that. along with other bits and bobs, the bill came to nearly £1200. Took a couple of weeks to get the part, so didn't get done till the end of October.

Went to pick it up. It didn't start on the first go (it always has started first throw) and the engine orange warning light came on. Walked back into the garage and they took it in and plugged it into diagnostics. Garage said it was probably a cam sensor, as they always 'fire off errors if there's been a starting issue' and the only other code on the diagnostics was the DPF needing a regen - i.e. 'it should clear'. Started next attempt and seemed ok - in fact, with the new turbo actuator it sounded better than ever! Engine warning light went off. Happy days.

Few weeks later, failed to start on and off again. Went to speak to garage who did the initial repair and they were clearly not interested - kept saying 'the only error we got was the DPF one (more interested in churning through MOTs).

Worryingly, the starting issue was also accompanied by it intermittently going into limp mode and, the final straw, it cut out on me on the way to work, so was also dangerous to drive. I hadn't anyone to go to that I trusted now either.

In desperation, I approached a JLR dealership. They couldn't fit it in till mid November. Got it recovered to them (at the time on the date they said to) but they didn't even look at it for another 5 days or so. Eventually, came up with the diagnosis of the crank sensor having failed. I said crack on and replace it. They eventually did - by the time the part had arrived and the work was done, it was Christmas (the 23rd, to be exact)! Another £600 bill. Picked her up and she started and drove ok initially.

Had it home for about 10 days when - guess what?

Recovered to the dealer again. The recovery guy (same fella) had a quick look again and felt it might be a duff sensor that was fitted, as he got a voltage drop error message from it. No engine warning light on this time though (interestingly).

This time, eventually when JLR looked at it (took weeks as it wasn't a booked in job), they felt it needed a new battery! The one thing I could maintain and check is the battery (I've a good charger - a C-TEK one) and it was a fairly new and good (Yuasa) battery. I had a hell of a game getting hold of anyone in the service department to talk sense about it (as I needed to know why they felt it was the battery) - no-one answering the phone, repeated failure to call me back etc. I was now more than a little p***ed off.

Went to the dealership physically to speak to someone. One of the technicians came out (nice guy) and explained his reasoning for thinking the battery was at fault (not the crank sensor - oscilloscope said it was working perfectly, but voltage dropping across it meant that the ECU wasn't receiving info from it and so engine won't start). I said you might as well crack on and replace the battery then (not cheap at their prices > £200).

The wife went to pick it up on my birthday (in mid February) and had to get the train to Derby and then walk from the station to the dealership (she would then drive to the gym and then home, she said). She paid the bill (another £390). She was sat around waiting for half an hour when eventually a sheepish-looking service manager appeared and said 'there's a bit of a problem'. Wife said 'what, it won't start?'. 'No'. Wife (at full volume) 'FFS!!!' (in a showroom full of the well-heeled looking at RRs who all looked stunned

)

They quickly gave her a new Evoque as a courtesy car this time. Amazing what a woman having a spazzy will do for customer service isn't it? Bearing in mind, all this time we'd been without the Landy and we both work awkward hours and I do on-calls too.

This time, the 'feeling' was it was the ECU. The intermittent fault being due to a loose solder or such like on the circuit board. It seemed to fail to start if left in the cold but started fine when kept in the heated workshop. The dealer said that they'd send it to a local specialist in ECUs and see if they could find the issue. I waited again. I honestly didn't believe they'd found the problem at all.

A week or 2 later, I (after another battle with telephone or email communication with the service department) get to speak to them and they tell me that the ECU cannot be repaired by the 'specialist'. What did I want to do (bearing in mind the cost of a new ECU)?

I now had a useless vehicle, so after a very quick consideration I said 'put a new one in it then', and I'd just have to bite the bullet with the cost.

I got it back on the 21st March. The bill was £1100 - they only charged me 1 hour's labour as a good will gesture. It seems ok, although there's a squeal at 2200 rpm (which I think is the auxillary belt pulleys), they'd knocked off my air intake grille on the wing (it was only loosely stuck on) and they'd broken the bonnet stay catch. The best bit was they hadn't refitted the engine cover!!! The wife took in back in and they re-fitted the air intake grille and the engine cover with copious apologies!

Where now? Well, I was looking at a Subaru Outback or a VW Tiguan 4Motion. I'd almost gone there when I realised how much I love the Defender and couldn't bear to get rid of it! Stupid? We'll see.

The cheeky

at the dealership had also quoted me £4000 for work that needs doing (to replace the swivel joints and all 4 brakes need new discs and pads)! Did I want them to do that (they actually phoned me last week)?

So, I still need to get some work done on it - that I know. And the chassis needs new rust-proofing etc.......... I think I've now found a decent Indie locally.

Other than that, am I a fool for keeping it? Nothing else makes me feel like that Defender when I look at it. Nothing comes close. Barring disaster, surely now it'll be okay? Am I kidding myself?

Here she is in the sunshine yesterday.

So folks, I may still be asking if anyone wants it in the near future - I'll keep you posted!

2nd Apr 2022 11:37am

LR90XS2011

Member Since: 05 Apr 2011
Location: bickenhill
Posts: 3641

2011 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Galway Green

fingers crossed for you

out of interest how many miles has it done? DEFENDER 90 TDCI XS,

I hope everyone is well and your land rovers make you happy

2nd Apr 2022 3:57pm

GREENI

Member Since: 22 Aug 2010
Location: staffs
Posts: 10381

I got sick of them as a daily. Now got a Golf R Wagon.
Ideal for Land Rover behaviour.

Click image to enlarge
There’s 5 in there, easily.

2nd Apr 2022 4:02pm

Doc P

Member Since: 03 Apr 2016
Location: Midlands
Posts: 565

LR90XS2011 wrote:
fingers crossed for you

out of interest how many miles has it done?

54k.

2nd Apr 2022 4:41pm

cee-b

Member Since: 25 Jan 2018
Location: South West
Posts: 117

'The cheeky Censored at the dealership had also quoted me £4000 for work that needs doing (to replace the swivel joints and all 4 brakes need new discs and pads)!'

Just for info, I just had all that, plus new calipers all round, done for just under £1300 at a really good indy. Main dealer prices are k'in ridiculous.

2nd Apr 2022 5:17pm

BuckBlu110

Member Since: 19 Apr 2014
Location: in the pub
Posts: 712

1994 Defender 110 BMW M57 3.0 Diesel CSW Buckingham Blue

I Know exactly how you feel, I had a saga with my 300 after I cooked it(totally my own fault

)
I had a load of problems after the original fix, which turned out that the over heating did a lot more damage than we expected. I had the same as you in regards to a garage that was more interested in mots than repairing, which resulted in more, constant problems.
It’s a horrible feeling to have when, at least for me, I had over 200k miles of relatively trouble free miles. It made me feel, like I couldn’t trust the car any more, and I hated that.
Finding a decent garage/indy was the difference between me having a car I can drive or an expensive ornament, I found a good one and they’ve been an absolute god send.

2nd Apr 2022 6:32pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20347

Sounds like a tale of bad luck which sadly does happen.

I do get the impression that main dealers go for a new everything approach, with often replacing items that are very costly that don’t need replacing.

After all, most people will genuinely listen to their advice, but there is nothing to say that said parts with vehicle hidden away out of the owners sight that the parts need replacing at all.

The Turbo for example I highly doubt you needed a new one, I had actuator issues and all it needed was lubing the actuator arm pivots. I bet if LR had it they’d have advised a new turbo…
Well they would wouldn’t they…
Same if the actuator fails. You need a new turbo… no, you can get actuators recon or built new…
(And very easy to change even for an amateur / DIY).

VCV’s they’ll charge a fortune for and they do not need programming in.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the VCV is at fault many have been sold a new fuel pump, and a “electronic re-learn” which isn’t needed on both accounts for a part that can be changed at home in 20 mins at for about £50.

Worse than that is one main dealer can be fine, and reasonable cost, but another a rip off.

When it comes to tech I can’t speak highly enough of Gary @ Alive, some of the electrics can be incredibly intricate and complicated. Martin is also very knowledgable with such things.

When I think about the cost of repairs, I just remember it’s nothing compared to buying a vehicle.
When you consider the new Def is what £560 or there abouts PCM and RR’s £1000 a month.
Even other “cars” you are talking of north of at least £150 minimum a month +
Unless you buy outright.
That builds up a lot, you are talking for example of paying for one or two clutches a year or a complete set of tyres every year and the rest.

I do believe in using Millers diesel additive permanently, as it will help keep things like the VCV, sensors, injectors, turbo, in better condition and less carbon and deposits build up.
Whilst it’s not a miracle product, many diesel techs have sworn by it when an engine has been rebuilt.

The worst jobs are the ones where you can’t drive it safely to an Indy or dealer. The whole thing with transport and having to arrange it all is a pain in the backside.

When they are running nice it’s worth it though, you’d miss it if you didn’t have it.

$W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R
🇬🇧🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪

Last edited by custom90 on 5th Apr 2022 7:46pm. Edited 1 time in total

2nd Apr 2022 7:35pm

seriesonenut

Member Since: 19 Nov 2014
Location: Essex
Posts: 1211

A while back I let go of my Land Rover One Ten CSW and had a number of discoveries over the years. I missed the Land Rover straight way, it took me few years to end up with another Defender (as well of a Discovery ) so won't make that mistake again! I guarantee you will miss it as soon as it has gone off the driveway and the Defender itch will start again !! 2010 XS USW
1957 Series One 88 diesel
1958 Series One 88 4x2

2nd Apr 2022 7:36pm

Mossberg

Member Since: 29 Feb 2020
Location: Lancs
Posts: 553

1993 Defender 90 300 Tdi HT Aintree Green

Wow, I really feel your pain. I believe one of the main killers of vehicles in the future will be electrical and sensor faults.

When I bought my Defender I deliberately went for the 300tdi as I would not be able to handle any electrics. I hope with the basic nature of the electrical circuits of the 300tdi that I will be able to learn enough to get by, and if not I hope it won't cost an arm and a leg. I hope to be able to learn the basics of mechanics, but I know I won't be able to do everything.

I hope you have better fortune with yours in the future. It looks like a nice example where mine is rough - around the edges and more!

All the best.

Mick

2nd Apr 2022 7:51pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17372

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

It sounds to me like you need to find a good and competent independent specialist, since clearly the one you use doesn't know defenders and doesn't worry about fleecing customers whilst randomly replacing parts. The main dealer is not much better, perhaps not surprising as it is a classic Defender, a vehicle they'd like to forget about.

How on earth can a turbo actuator "coke up"? It's and external stepper motor connected to the movable vanes via an external linkage, so the turbo vanes could coke up, the actuator could fail, but the actuator cannot come up.

I think, sadly, you've been "had" repeatedly.

2nd Apr 2022 9:40pm

Doc P

Member Since: 03 Apr 2016
Location: Midlands
Posts: 565

I was over a barrel. The trouble was no-one had any availability, so I was thrown to the wolves.

Hopefully, I’ve found a decent independent but we’ll have to see.

5th Apr 2022 6:55pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20347

blackwolf wrote:
How on earth can a turbo actuator "coke up"? It's and external stepper motor connected to the movable vanes via an external linkage, so the turbo vanes could coke up, the actuator could fail, but the actuator cannot come up.

This is what I was thinking - I would say an attempt to flog a brand new Turbo.
On mine when I had the issue with the actuator and vanes sticking, I ended up with limp mode till I got home.
Since I lubed the actuator arm pivot points with a little 3 in 1 oil the Turbo has been working better than ever and with its full power output.

Also, in the past when I did use main dealer servicing the props and UJ’s weren’t greased either, many things missed. $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R
🇬🇧🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪

5th Apr 2022 8:04pm

The Anti Christ

Member Since: 24 Feb 2022
Location: Kingston
Posts: 26

2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Santorini Black

Quote:
@Doc P: The best bit was they hadn't refitted the engine cover!!! The wife took in back in and they re-fitted the air intake grille and the engine cover with copious apologies!

Had a similar issue with the local LR Dealer. They had removed the bonnet while in for a Rear crank Seal replacement which involved removing transmission

Then refitted the bonnet improperly, somehow manageing to fasten it long enough for me to get home.

When I realised the bonnet wasnt re-fastening brought it back and was told that it would need a new bonnet catch and cable.

After much insistance with the Service Manager, they agreed to adjust it as a "gratuity" since the Landy had sat there for an entire week prior even with a proper booking.

Got it back with visible depressions in the bonnet.... too exhausted to go back and complain again.

But totally agreed...

Quote:
Nothing else makes me feel like that Defender when I look at it. Nothing comes close.

Theres nothing like a Defender!

This after having lost use of her for nine months while an indie diagnosed failure to start issues when cold which eventually was fixed by servicing the fuel pump (Tdci 110)...

Still have PTSD about taking her on long trips for fear of not being able get back or worse losing power on the way.

Quote:
@BuckBlu110: It made me feel, like I couldn’t trust the car any more, and I hated that.

I know the feeling only too well my friend!

Just fix it before your friends find out it broke again - Landy Life Forever!

6th Apr 2022 4:30pm

JPE

Member Since: 19 Nov 2018
Location: South West England
Posts: 334

Sorry you’ve been through such a traumatic time with it.
Mine’s a 2013 SW in firenze red too, so reading your description I couldn’t help but feel it could be me! Totally agree no other vehicle comes close to a defender (especially in the best colour!).
Definitely a decision of the heart, not the mind, but (as I try to explain to my wife) nothing wrong with that!

6th Apr 2022 9:14pm

BJH

Member Since: 14 Apr 2022
Location: West Wales
Posts: 17

2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Alpine White

She looks good in the Sun, though.

I was very sorry to read this tale of woe. The trouble with electrical issues that you can't diagnose yourself is you are then at the mercy of the 'professional' outfit that you submit your troublesome Landy to.

And here I do take issue with professional garages because part of the cost for the work is the diagnosis of the problem. And so I would expect that an incorrectly diagnosed problem would be at the fault, and therefore the cost, of the garage. But that's not how it seems to work. Instead they will make a guess as to the problem, present you with the option to go forward with it, and all the responsibility for the wrong diagnosis then rests with you! It's crazy.

It's for this reason that it is important to establish a relationship with a garage you can trust. Easier said than done, I know.

The battery diagnosis by the LR tech is frankly bizarre. Obviously I don't have the full and detailed information but based on what you told to us here, there is no way you go from that to blaming the battery. I don't understand it at all.

Well, I am glad you at least got to the bottom of it in the end. And, I have to say, she looks great in the Sun.

14th Apr 2022 9:51am

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