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LR90XS2011

Member Since: 05 Apr 2011
Location: bickenhill
Posts: 3656

2011 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Galway Green

I had an ATB in the front only on a 90 for a while I have posted my experience, no weird handling but it would understeer under power in the wet.

I also had the pull to the left it was like the road was on a camber, checked everything and found nothing wrong, it started immediately after install (at Ashcroft approved fitters) and I wished I had gone for the cross pin, however after probably 10k miles it runs perfectly straight.

On hard surfaces with good traction the front ATB also gives better pull to centre under power and better braking.

Now it has settled down I am super happy I have it. I did the back diff as well after the front, and have run a back only.

It was the long thread on here that Blackwolf contributed to that led me to do mine and now I am glad I did.
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic13545...hcroft+atb DEFENDER 90 TDCI XS,

I hope everyone is well and your land rovers make you happy

12th Mar 2022 7:11am

Angus_Beef

Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Corris Grey

Page 223 of the manual:

Click image to enlarge

"Press the roll pin fully into the planetary gear housing (approximately 8-10mm will protrude from the housing when correctly installed)." Roaming around 🇳🇴🇨🇭

12th Mar 2022 8:20am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17610

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Now that's interesting! The diff in my photo is a Disco2 rear diff, overhauled and converted to a four-bolt flange. When doing this I didn't disturb the side gears nor differential gears as there was no need. The roll-pin in my photo was fitted by the factory.

This begs the question have the roll-pins got longer? It also now gives you a quandary since there's no way to tell if your diff is perfect with a sticky-out pin, or halfway to a catastrophic failure with a non-sticky-out pin. Oh dear!

I've built or rebuilt about 8 Puma or Td5 diffs in the last 20 years and I've not seen one with a sticky-out roll-pin (although the pin, along with most other parts, was unrecognisable when I took the original front diff out of my Puma after it locked up and shattered). I therefore can't really advise you on this, I'm afraid.

14th Mar 2022 9:41pm

Angus_Beef

Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

it is a bit interesting, and seems par for the course with landrover :lol

the manual I have (from which the above screenshot was nicked) is for 2012 on.

LR workshop shows two part numbers for the roll pin on the diagram for 2007-2016:

PN FTC5402 which was used 1987-2006 and 2007 up to chassis BA

Click image to enlarge

and
PN LR027944 which was used from chassis BA (which should be from 2010)

Click image to enlarge

So now I am speculating that rather than do something logical to counter the diff problem in the Pumas (like put 4 pin fronts), they just put a stronger roll pin in the casing, updated the manual to show that it's longer and sticks out a bit, and went to the pub.

EDIT: New part numbers on casing, cross pin, gears.... did they do a 2-pin update? Roaming around 🇳🇴🇨🇭

Last edited by Angus_Beef on 15th Mar 2022 8:53am. Edited 1 time in total

15th Mar 2022 8:38am

Angus_Beef

Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

blackwolf wrote:
It also now gives you a quandary ...

Yes, but it's the same quandary that the output shaft presents, although there is no real opportunity to check it "while im in there." Until I take it apart and look I wont be 100% sure, but for now at least I'm fairly certain that the visual inspection revealed nothing bad. Based on the info Ive found, the pin should be sticking out a bit on my Jan 2015 and the hole in the casing for the cross pin is not wallowed out.

Now I have an ATB that I can replace when Im ready (sooner rather than later) and am on the way to replacing all three which is something thats been on my wish list.

And hats off to Ashcroft and team - my new ATB and associated parts and supplies arrived Yesterday morning! Roaming around 🇳🇴🇨🇭

15th Mar 2022 8:50am

BogMonster

Member Since: 05 Feb 2008
Location: Stanley
Posts: 403

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Corris Grey

Angus_Beef wrote:
I guess the question now is to go for the ashcroft 4 pin or ATB.

Most here would probably say ATB, but I have some concerns:
- ATB only in front makes weird handling?
- Have read the ATB makes the truck pull to the left at first?

4-pin front makes the front and rear approximately the same.
- marginally cheaper. no worries?

I think I'll order one of the two in the coming days as that roll-pin being already half way out is at best making for an even weaker diff, and at worst is a harbinger of doom. I need to drive back to Norway in May and I can't have this thing break on the highway with a full load, wife, dogs, etc.

Fun.

EDIT: Would you guys replace the crown wheel bolts?

I have an ATB and Ashcroft shafts and drive members in both ends of my 300Tdi 110 and will do the same again in the Puma when I get around to it. Slightly odd/stiff feel to the steering for the first couple of minutes driving until the oil warms up a bit, and now there are a few miles on it I literally don't notice it at all after that but it's spectacular off-road. A 4 pin centre is nearly the same cost and exactly the same amount of work to fit. ---
2006 Defender 110 SW 300Tdi • 2011 Ford Ranger XLT crewcab • 2015 Defender 110 Station Wagon Utility TDCi

30th Mar 2022 9:06am

Angus_Beef

Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

I wonder where all my pictures went? Anyway, I'm finally getting around to fitting the front ATB diff center.

The plan is to remove the 14mm (9/16?) bolts that hold on the swivel balls and move them out just enough to get the diff carrier out.

Question about the seal between the swivelball housing and axle tube. I assume there is a gasket in there and I was not planning to replace it. should I seal it back with black rtv or hylosil?

I guess I'll just have to tighten swivelball housing the bolts up "pretty good" since there is not really a way to measure torque on them?

Nige has a great video on replacing the diff center and that's the method I will take. Seems pretty straight forward. I'll allow a day to get it all done because I am slow doing things the first time

Roaming around 🇳🇴🇨🇭

20th Jun 2022 8:42am

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3481

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Indeed, there is a gasket between the swivel ball and the axle tube. If it was mine, I would want the gasket, and add sealant on either side of the gasket for double measure.

Yeah, normal torque wrenches will not fit, but there are a few tricks to measure torque:
1. Use a spring balance at the end of your spanner. Multiple the Newtons required on the spring balance by the calculation of 100/distance spring balance to bolt in centimeters. Always pull the spring balance perpendicular to the spanner.

2. You can use the torque wrench on a spanner. Most common open ended spanners have 12 point ring for the bolts, and the open end. Size is 9/16” or 14mm. Problem is that a 1/2” drive torque wrench will fit a bit loose in the 9/16” or 14mm open end, but still doable. If you set the torque wrench perfectly perpendicular with the spanner, then the torque setting on the torque wrench is exactly transmitted to the bolt. If not exactly perpendicular, you will increase the torque on the bolt by the ratio of torque wrench to spanner length and the angle between them.

Edit: if going for spring balance method, and spring balance is in Kg, then divide the specified torque required by 9.81 to convert from N to Kg. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

20th Jun 2022 9:11am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17610

Angus_Beef wrote:
...
The plan is to remove the 14mm (9/16?) bolts that hold on the swivel balls and move them out just enough to get the diff carrier out.
...

This is the normal way to do the job if you don't want to strip the whole axle. A few thoughts based on my experiences swapping out my front diff (which I have had to do more than once now):

I left the front wheels and tyres on then jacked the front axle up and put it on stands so that the front wheels were just resting on a pair of machinery skates. The front hub assembly, with or without wheels is extremely heavy and doing this allowed the skates to take the weight. The first time I did the job I didn't use skates and had the wheels resting on the blade of a spade, so that pulling the spade handle pulled the wheel. The skate method is easier! It doesn't have to be a machinery skate, of course, a sturdy board with castors would do just as well.
You will of course need to disconnect the drag link and the tie rod. After you have done this, and you then detach the swivel hub from the axle tube, unless you take steps to prevent it the weight of the steering arm on the rear of the swivel hub will cause the rear end to drop, rotating on the wheel bearings, and the weight will be taken by the brake hose. This is not a good idea, so you will need to make sure that there is protection in place before it happens. I cut two length of 3"x3" fence post of the correct length to support the steering arms.
You really don't need a torque wrench for the axle tube to swivel hub bolts. I don't understand why there is such an obsession with torque wrenches nowadays, I can only assume that it is a substitute for confidence, experience, or common sense. If you do them up "fairly tight" (note, not "absurdly tight") with a long ring spanner you will have no problems. Torque wrenches are really only important in situations such as cylinder heads where there is a number of bolts which need to be the same tightness, or when bolting through an aluminium alloy part which might get crushed, or when the thread is formed in a soft metal, or you are using a unconventional fastener material, or working on aircraft. For steel through/to steel fasteners in a fairly non-critical application common sense combined with experience is a more useful tool!
I also always give the warning to beware the weight of the diff assembly if you haven't done the job before. It is possible for one person to lift the diff assembly down and up from under the vehicle, but it is sufficiently heavy to give you a life-changing injury if you drop it on a squishy part of your anatomy or on your rib cage. The current pinion housing will be stuck in place with Hylosil and may require a certain amount of violence to separate it from the axle tube, so when administering said violence leave two or three nuts loose but on their threads so that it can't unexpectedly fall right out.
Hylosil or Hylomar will be entirely satisfactory for the swivel hub to axle joint. You won't be able to fit a new gasket unless you remove the swivel hub assemblies completely from the vehicle, and to do that you either need to disconnect the brake lines or remove the calipers from the hubs and hang them up, neither of which is strictly necessary, and either of which will make the job take longer.

It is not clear (at least not to me) from your post if you are replacing the pinion housing assembly complete with the diff, or if you are fitting a new diff into your old pinion housing. The latter is not particularly difficult but does require a certain amount of care to set the bearing preload and backlash correctly, although you should not have to worry about the pinion height. If you are fitting the new diff into the existing pinion housing, you will need a DTI to set the backlash and a peg spanner (which is easy enough to make if need be) to adjust the carrier side bearings.

Finally doing this job also gives you a good opportunity to check you front axle welds for tell-tale cracks and, if you are so inclined, to fit a pair of the reinforcing brackets that Landrover thinks is a substitute for proper welding on the ends of the axle tube. I think a 2015 MY vehicle is considered safe from this particular "feature", but personally I consider the brackets well worth fitting for peace of mind. (See this thread if you are unsure about the feature I mean).

Good luck!

20th Jun 2022 1:54pm

Angus_Beef

Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

Well into it this afternoon but I seem to have hit an obstacle- the diff carrier is glued on incredibly! I have not been able to budge it. I’ll try again tomorrow with a bigger chisel and a bigger hammer to get it started so I can hopefully get a pry bar under it. But man it’s stuck like crazy! Roaming around 🇳🇴🇨🇭

21st Jun 2022 8:17pm

htb2

Member Since: 02 Nov 2018
Location: Carmarthenshire
Posts: 538

Be careful you don't damage the mating faces with a chisel.
Try a jack under the prop flange to lift it up and break the seal.

21st Jun 2022 8:24pm

Angus_Beef

Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

That worked 👍🏼

Roaming around 🇳🇴🇨🇭

22nd Jun 2022 5:46am

Angus_Beef

Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

Click image to enlarge Roaming around 🇳🇴🇨🇭

22nd Jun 2022 8:11am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17610

blackwolf wrote:
... The current pinion housing will be stuck in place with Hylosil and may require a certain amount of violence to separate it from the axle tube, so when administering said violence leave two or three nuts loose but on their threads so that it can't unexpectedly fall right out. ...

Told you!

The jack under the flange method usually works. It is when that just lifts the vehicle that you know you really have a problem!

22nd Jun 2022 8:18am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17610

Your diff looks a lot healthier than my original diff when I removed it!

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

I was at least lucky that the damage was all confined to and contained within the diff carrier, so the pinion housing, pinion, and crownwheel were undamaged. The diff itself was properly mullered with the differential gears, side gears, and the remains of the pin all fused into a mass of fragments.

Still at least I had Landrover's assurance that the diff was entirely adequate for the job and there was no fundamental strength issue!

22nd Jun 2022 8:30am

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