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Home > INEOS Grenadier > Could Land Rover have built the Grenadier?

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TonyF

Member Since: 13 Aug 2015
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 61

Yes, I don't know alot about Sir Jim Ratcliffe but he does seem to be in the fortunate position of being able to give the project his best shot without being focussed on the bottom line. Much like his engagement with sailing and cycling. I'm probably not the only one who hopes its a winner.

Grenadier wrote:
I think your last comment holds an uncomfortable truth but also a great opportunity. LR would never have gone to the effort in terms of design, use, sourcing specialist parts etc and listening to former owner’s needs, as Ineos are, to have done a good job. It would have either been over reliant on electrics, or been compromised on parts, (basic suspension, chassis, power unit, drive train etc) or both. It would have been yet another half baked compromise. So by LR following a commercial direction as you have alluded to, it has given someone else the opportunity to fill the void/niche with a genuinely well thought out and built design, that meets the expectations of this marketplace. A rare opportunity in a competitive automotive marketplace where the creation of the vehicle itself trumps pure commercial viability. For those considering this, we should thank our lucky stars as we may ultimately end up with a far, far better vehicle.

11th Jul 2021 2:00am

markb110

Member Since: 22 May 2010
Location: Guildford
Posts: 2644

Having seen the early test Grenadier yesterday and comparing it to the New Defender I would say this as a very simple comparison…….

If I had the money, I would be happy to buy the Grenadier live with it for two weeks then take it down a byway that I know would scratch the paint work, call it character, call it part of a life’s story it would then lead with me for many years. My current 90TD5 I have had for over 11.5 years now, my last 300tdi 110 I had for 11.5 years. I would feel that the Grenadier would easily do the same.

If I had the money to buy a New Defender. I would not want to scratch it or in anyway ‘personalise’ to the point I would lose out financially at at the time of letting it go before the warrantee ran out.

The new Defender looks better in the modern world. The Grenadier looks old for a new vehicle. Not classic like a Defender classic does, but purposeful and ready for work and adventure (and modern driving in regards to emissions and those unfortunately now in Low emission zones and forced to pay extra to drive).

If you buy a Grenadier just to polish it every weekend thinking it is going to impress your Hybrid BMW owning neighbours, you won’t.

If you kit it out and go out for weekends, come back and drop mud everywhere, you still won’t impress your BMW owning neighbours, but at least you can tell them to go

themselves, your having fun whilst they are trying to keep the lease company happy before they hand it back.

Just my politically incorrect and unbiased opinion

11th Jul 2021 11:22am

Setok

Member Since: 16 Jan 2009
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 422

TonyF wrote:
Yes, I don't know alot about Sir Jim Ratcliffe but he does seem to be in the fortunate position of being able to give the project his best shot without being focussed on the bottom line. Much like his engagement with sailing and cycling. I'm probably not the only one who hopes its a winner.

This kind of reminds me of how many long-term business successes have been built: create a great product, that people like. Sounds simple, yet few actually do it. It doesn't always drive immediate, quarterly results, but it builds a foundation of reputation, credibility and loyal fans (who also become ambassadors for the brand).

I feel the British car industry hasn't, for quite some time, focused on company building, by people who really understand their products. That's why many launch events are so embarrassing and full of marketspeak.

12th Jul 2021 1:46pm

Grenadier

Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5839

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey

^^^ A good example would be Koenigssegggsgeggsgggggsg. Or however it’s spelt. Had a dream, created a great car, then a following, then a reputation and now they’re a firmly established, industry leading hyper car company and they only build 20 or so cars a year. Much smaller scale, but the principles of building a great product and you will earn a following rather than being profit focused from the outset, remain. Ineos certainly has that mindset, as it could be argued that pound for pound, the parts, materials, tech, design and development etc far exceed what the car in principle is, just a (much) better Defender. Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

12th Jul 2021 5:02pm

22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3150

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Keswick Green

blackwolf wrote:
Of course they "could" have built it, they have the resources. What they lacked was the will, they didn't want to make it, the company's culture has changed beyond recognition. It simply not a vehicle the current "directing minds" are interested in.

Nothing wrong with that as a commercial decision in principle, though it has been criticised by many, and Ineos will undoubtedly build a better successor to the old Defender concept that LR would have done.

This was my thinking for at least the past 15 years - within the company the Defender was seen as a joke, a dinosaur, something which devalued the luxury SUVs that for some inexplicable reason bore the same brand name. We know there were attempts to kill it off before it eventually happened, going back to at least the 1990s. I bet many in the ivory towers at JLR HQ had a party when production ended. As you say, there was absolutely zero marketing, and where it was shown it was always at the back of the line up, like some kind of embarrassment. Why *would* anyone want to buy a vehicle its own manufacturer was ashamed of? It was also long starved of updates, and the last few years pretty much saw little beyond new seats (bolt in swap) and paint options. We were never even given a real, viable reason why production had to stop, emissions and safety blatantly not true considering how many very similar vehicles are still in production today. They could have, and should have, done a Grenadier on it, and I think they will eventually regret not having done so.

I'll bet the next-gen Defender will suddenly feature a lot of obvious nods to the OG, and possibly even get proper commercial derivatives, once Grenadier sells well and JLR decide they want a slice of that cake afterall. 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

12th Jul 2021 6:17pm

Slideywindows

Member Since: 09 Sep 2016
Location: North Essex
Posts: 1286

Because they look like them, I can see Grenadiers eventually being called Defenders by the general public (and sloppy journalists?) just as Land Rovers were - and still are - often referred to as Jeeps.

Oh the irony if the Grenadier eventually lands the generic title of "Defender".

And the L663 is called "just another SUV".

13th Jul 2021 5:05pm

22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3150

I think the Grenadier looks Russian somehow. 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

14th Jul 2021 4:13am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Slideywindows wrote:
Oh the irony if the Grenadier eventually lands the generic title of "Defender".

I can see the average person in the street just thinking of it as a "Land Rover" ~ the best one JLR never built.

However, JLR can, retrospectively, take a big piece of the credit by moving away from the core concept and creating the space and opportunity for someone with the clear vision, passion and bank balance. There's no doubt, that Jim Ratcliffe as a user, enthusiast, and someone who "got" the vehicle is in a better position to oversee this project than any senior manager at JLR.

I like the irony that JLR themselves have saved the "Defender" by not trying to replace it. It's the motoring equivalent of the famous Vietnam war quote:

"In what is considered one of his iconic dispatches, published on 7 February 1968, Arnett wrote about the Battle of Bến Tre: "'It became necessary to destroy the town to save it,' a United States major said today."

14th Jul 2021 5:33am

TonyF

Member Since: 13 Aug 2015
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 61

And look what happened to Bến Tre - someone else rebuilt it because it was necessary to have it there!

15th Jul 2021 3:39am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Customer Number One

Interesting Expedition Portal podcast with Greg Clark, VP of Ineos Automotive in America (starts from 23:30 in) :

15th Jul 2021 4:54am

Grenadier

Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5839

American perspective: “It’s, like, a mid-sized SUV”.

MID-sized?

Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

15th Jul 2021 9:33am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Seems someone else thinks a Defender/G Wagen lookalike has merit:

Car Industry Analysis (@lovecarindustry) Tweeted:

The Beijing Auto BJ80 is a Chinese SUV manufactured by BAIC Motor since 2016. It’s a D-SUV Off-road clearly inspired on the first generation Mercedes G-Class.

But, is it an inspiration or a low quality copycat? You tell me.

https://t.co/nkvBysiyKS https://twitter.com/lovecarindustry/status...39651?s=20

Only 3,500 sold in 2020, but it does have plenty of different models in it's BJ range.

16th Aug 2021 8:49am

GSDChauffeur

Member Since: 10 Jul 2021
Location: Southwest
Posts: 14

There are some rumours about Mercedes presenting a new non-luxury version of the G Wagon (G Professional) at the Munich Auto Show in September.

I wonder if this was triggered by the competition of the Grenadier or if this was long planned.

25th Aug 2021 7:01am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Is G Professional new? I thought it already existed...but might be mistaken.

25th Aug 2021 9:04am

GSDChauffeur

Member Since: 10 Jul 2021
Location: Southwest
Posts: 14

It existed already but it was stopped in 2018, when the updated Model was introduced.

25th Aug 2021 9:14am

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