 | Home > General & Technical (L663) > 2020 Defender main discussion thread |
 
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510  
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What does it matter if it makes money as a model line over its projected life? If there was any opportunity to beat Ford, Isuzu and Toyota at their own game, do you think they wouldn’t have taken it?
What’s perfectly clear is that they wouldn’t sell very many of the kind of vehicle the Walts, preppers and off-road fantasists still dream of. |
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24th Jan 2021 1:24pm |
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| Cheshire110 Member Since: 26 Jul 2013 Location: Cheshire/London Posts: 2753
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LR sold 20,000 defenders last year, but only really got going towards the end of the year... looking at the monthly data they sold 4,700 in December alone - the highest month yet. US was the biggest market at 2,400 in Dec, followed by the UK with 500. At that pace that's 50-60,000 per annum already and most markets are still only starting to ramp up sales, and we're in the middle of a pandemic, and the full model range (90's, PHEV, full engine range etc) hasn't even started to come out yet. Compare that to around 20,000 G-Wagen sales per annum or 60,000 land cruiser Prado... Admittedly it still is a way off some other competition for now (Toyota sell something like 150,000 4Runners a year and Jeep something like 300,000 Wranglers) Not sure where this 'the new defender is a failure' attitude has come from? We all live the old defender but it barely managed 15k/year even at peak 'nostalgia' right before the end... Cheers, David Land Rovers of all shapes S3 onwards… Daily is a 110 V8. |
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24th Jan 2021 2:01pm |
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| Cheshire110 Member Since: 26 Jul 2013 Location: Cheshire/London Posts: 2753
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Not to mention the anecdotal evidence of the high number of new users (particularly from the US) on here... Cheers, David
Land Rovers of all shapes S3 onwards… Daily is a 110 V8. |
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24th Jan 2021 2:02pm |
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| Cheshire110 Member Since: 26 Jul 2013 Location: Cheshire/London Posts: 2753
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Here’s monthly global sales of LR’s 4 “large” vehicles (excluding disco sport, evoque etc)
Shows defender sales ramping up very nicely indeed. Was the 2nd best selling vehicle in the whole range (very slightly behind Disco Sport) in December. Only worry for LR is perhaps that defender might be stealing sales from the Disco 5...  Click image to enlarge Cheers, David Land Rovers of all shapes S3 onwards… Daily is a 110 V8. |
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24th Jan 2021 2:19pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804  
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Yup the same arguments. I’m not 100% happy with my Puma. I’m spending thousands improving it. This could also have been done in evolution of the model without ignoring 95% of its history, usage and heritage. The new Defender isn’t ‘moving on’ it’s starting from scratch is a different market. The Grenadier is the Defender ‘moving on’. JLR were completely capable of doing the same thing instead of creating the 10th identikit SUV in its stable. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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24th Jan 2021 5:37pm |
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| Cheshire110 Member Since: 26 Jul 2013 Location: Cheshire/London Posts: 2753
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I guess you can’t please everyone no matter what they do.
Seems to me that making a niche, low volume, low margin 4x4 probably wasn’t the most sensible option for LR. I can live with that, we’ll always have the old defender if that’s what you want. Remember that even in 2015, with peak Defender mania, LR only shifted about 15,000 defenders... Land Rover were clear from the beginning (with 4yr break in production) that this was a new vehicle altogether. They set out to build the most capable and desirable 4x4 out there - and I personally think they knocked it out the park. And I think sales stats will show that too. Cheers, David Land Rovers of all shapes S3 onwards… Daily is a 110 V8. |
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24th Jan 2021 5:51pm |
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| Morepower Member Since: 08 Jan 2013 Location: Fife, Scotland Posts: 630 
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I think the main problem with the whole 'New Defender' Is LR had no real alternative... They only have two platforms, and the Defender is built on a hybrid like all the others Disco, RR etc... Their stapped for cash (supposedly losing 4m a day in warranty claims)???? So it was easy... Chuck some new clothes on a a Disco... Release the next gen electronics (which will no doubt be fitted to everything else when they are updated)... and hey presto... You have a new vehicle....
For me the problem is it bares no real resemblence to the original.. I have an old 60's Porsche and my boss has the latest Gen GT3... When you sit them next to each other, you can see the evolution... And his GT3 does EVERYTHING better than my old banger Can you see the evolution with the Defender... For me... NO..... the back end is pure Suzuki Vitra the front a styled over Disco 4.... Long term JLR better have their act together in the USA or that will end in disaster... The americans don't do poor customer service... Just my 2P's worth..... It doesn't matter how bad it is, It can always get worse... 2013 Bowler 110 (Sold) 2016 Bowler 90 Rally Spec (Sold) |
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24th Jan 2021 6:31pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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If the old Land Rover/Defender - which was objectively hopeless by pretty much every metric for almost half its existence - had been developed and upgraded and replaced like every other comparable car, it likely wouldn’t be much different from what we have now. The old Defender was a complete anachronism and there was no way on earth anything other than an entirely new car was feasible. The Grenadire is an embarrassing rip-off vanity project that’s going to drive at best like a Wrangler (in Ineos’s words), and won’t offer any greater utility or off-road ability over its much more sophisticated rivals in return. You’d have to be mad to spend your own money on one. |
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24th Jan 2021 7:56pm |
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| Hwalker164 Member Since: 11 Jun 2020 Location: Melbourne Posts: 20 
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To put things into perspective in Australia Toyota sell around 6000 Hilux a month and Ford Sell around 5000 Ford Rangers a month , even Toyota sell around 2900 Landcruiser a month so honestly Land rover sales of any model are not that large especially considering Australia market is much smaller than USA
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25th Jan 2021 7:43am |
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| Hwalker164 Member Since: 11 Jun 2020 Location: Melbourne Posts: 20
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Yep i think you nailed it in one , they had no other alternative to get something to market quickly. The Japanese have sadly still shown there is a large market for chassis vehicles which still drive nicely. And that is coming from a die hard Land rover fan !
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25th Jan 2021 7:46am |
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| lohr500 Member Since: 14 Sep 2014 Location: Skipton Posts: 1316 
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But yet, Jeep (Wrangler), Mercedes (G Wagen), Suzuki (Jimny), and Ford (New Bronco) all seem capable of producing vehicles that meet 21st century construction regulations, whilst still retaining their classic design lineage. I totally agree that old Defender was well past it's sell by date and needed a major rework, but if there had been a will at JLR to retain the essence of the old, then I am sure it could have been done. If they had done this at a sensible price point then I can't help but think they would shift in volumes that they currently only dream about. That being said, their business model clearly positions themselves as a luxury brand with premium prices. Trouble is there are plenty of other players in the same space who have the benefit of other divisions shifting high volume mainstream vehicles. That must give their competitors an advantage from economies of scale and shared R&D resource. Only time will tell if Ineos is a vanity project (or perhaps a way to shed profit to minimise taxation obligations) but it could well turn out to be very embarrassing for JLR if it sells in volume. |
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25th Jan 2021 9:27am |
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| J77 Member Since: 04 Nov 2019 Location: Fife Posts: 3395 
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Another 90 video, pretty much my spec.
24MY 90 D250 HSE, Tasman Blue |
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25th Jan 2021 10:26pm |
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| Fat Cog Member Since: 19 Mar 2012 Location: Oxfordshire & Devon Posts: 502 
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The 90 is growing on me! I've been looking at the configurator & have been trying to work out whether or not the full height bulkhead on the HT is standard fitment & I'm assuming it can easily be removed? Since 1973...S1, Air Portable's, Defender's, but only my Wolf TUL HS GS remains
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25th Jan 2021 10:40pm |
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| Defendit.. Member Since: 09 Aug 2020 Location: 's-Hertogenbosch Posts: 422 
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[quote="J77"]Another 90 video, pretty much my spec.
I love the black grained doorhandles, unfortunately they replaced it on my S MY21 into painted with Easy Entry. I think I will change them and shut off that Easy Entry ( not heard any good of it anyway) Looks Just to posh painted... No Mud flaps for my 90.! ----------------------------------------- P300 S MY21 on air, adv.+ offroad pack, DRL+fog, Dinamica Suedecloth + Ebony headliner/Cross Beam- Many Mods.. |
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25th Jan 2021 11:00pm |
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