 | Home > Spotted > Giving Defenders a bad name... |
 
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| RFT Member Since: 13 Nov 2010 Location: Cheshire Posts: 680   
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Extract from Highway Code:
 Click image to enlarge 130 Puma HCPU with an Artica 240LR Demountable Camper |
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20th Jan 2021 3:54pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5829  
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Like many on here, I’m ‘both’: a cyclist and driver. I think there are some points to be born in mind, in no particular order.
First is that there is a mentality amongst most drivers that driving (and a driving licence) are a ‘right’ not a luxury. If the test was made harder, perhaps also graded (we grade A Levels, failure of which doesn’t cost lives, yet we don’t grade almost the only test we all take, yet can cost lives. Straight pass or fail - basically), people wouldn’t be so arrogant and self righteous. We need to change this mentality of someone having something by ‘right’ rather than someone having to ‘earn’ something. A driving licence is certainly no exception. What’s more, this mentality will only get worse as the young SM-driven yooves believe every-bloody-thing they can do on this planet is their ‘right’. They’re self obsessed by it. So as long as you can scrape a pass, and feel in your deepest soul that driving is your right, it will be to the detriment of others. Two, there are (in my opinion) three types of cyclist. You have the very, very regular cyclist - which includes motivated sports cyclist, the Uber keen cyclist who’s commuted for 25 years without fail in all weathers, and the tourer. You then have the part-time commuter (recent convert, only when the sun shines, often urban) and also the family cyclist - (school runs, shopping trips, Sunday runs, all with kids in their basket). And finally the pub-goer or riverside Sunday bimble cyclist, get on a bike three or four times a year, often tuck in to some booze, completely clueless. Their respective understanding of cycling, their road awareness, their respect for others, and their distractions vary wildly. How they use the road, the risks they do/don’t place themselves at, their chances of being killed, their general aptitude varies enormously. This is by no means exclusive to each group, but if you watch road positioning and defensive riding by the keenest cyclists, versus the nervous 21 year old student with headphones on, a heavy computer bag, and negotiating London traffic, they’re poles apart. Nearly all the deaths on London roads are the latter type of cyclist. Shocking road positioning, nervous, distracted, inexperienced. Never fails to amaze me. Finally, so many people are so angry now. Short tempered, reactive, unpleasant, selfish and angry. Hot, feisty, angry. Angry about absolutely everything. And often holier than thou as well. This comes back to the ‘my right is...’ mentality. It’s never, whether cyclist or driver, about thinking about others. It about me. Only me. Right now. This is spread in equal measure between both road users, with drivers being too impatient to wait and give a cyclist space, or conversely a cyclist getting on his/her high horse about a car drivers actions, remonstrating and posting it on SM, so that it makes also cyclists look like self righteous a-holes. Neither is right, neither is nice. Like many on here, I refuse to pass a cyclist until I can almost enter the opposite lane, however much tooting there is behind me. But I also get annoyed by cyclists who ride two abreast (or three) when road conditions clearly don’t allow. I get frustrated by cyclists who shouldn’t be on the road at all, jump lights, ride on pavements etc, as it gives me a bad name. I stay close to the pavement, never jump a light, never use the pavement and when I’m grinding up a hill at an inordinately slow pace and someone waits for me, I always, ALWAYS, stick a thumb up in thanks, even though I’m about to go into cardiac arrest. And, as I’m lucky to be on the cycling side of the road, when I do pass a cyclist I will always stick a thumb up, and shout some encouragement, cos I’ve been there. As a driver i think about the cyclist, as a cyclist I think about the driver or pedestrian. But I do that others as well, who are often the brunt of a-holes righteousness or anger. What we see on the road we see everywhere. waiters, and post office staff, and people at the check out etc. It’s about respect and putting yourself in someone else’s shoes. I cannot abide dismissive staff who spend their time glued to their phones, but do your job properly and I’ll thank you profusely. Manners, respect, politeness, putting ore you, patience. Most of that is lost now, certainly in the UK which I find (where I tend to visits - London and the SE) incredibly rude. But that translates into everything these people do and that includes how you act whether a driver or cyclist. That’s what it boils down to. Respect for others, but sadly it is becoming less and less and less.  Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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20th Jan 2021 3:58pm |
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| rockster57 Member Since: 15 Nov 2014 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 937 
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^^^ Well said that man
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20th Jan 2021 4:04pm |
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I recently sold a bicycle (still have two others in "the fleet"). A potential buyer was in discussion with me regarding the bike i had up for sale. Condition, size, spec etc. etc. and we quickly agreed a price and a time/date to collect. At that point I asked if he wouldn't mind wearing a face covering when he arrived at the house. I explained that I was not just being cautious for the sake of my own health but I am also the "care bubble" for my 91 year old mother. I let him know that naturally I would also wear a mask to minimise risk to him. However, the reaction I received was one of total indignation, almost hostility. He had not worn a face covering at any point since it all began last March including on public transport and he certainly wasn't going to start doing so now. If i wanted him to wear a face covering, then he said the sale is off!
| The Crab Botherer Member Since: 07 May 2020 Location: WIRRAL Posts: 56 
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There are a surprising number of knuckle dragging "flat earthers" out there, hopefully Darwin will sort them out.
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20th Jan 2021 4:27pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17441 
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I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, I read "the space for the cyclist was a good meter" and interpreted that as you suggesting that the Defender was a "good meter" away from the bike. If that wasn't what you were suggesting (it is still how it appears to me) then I apologise unreservedly for the apparent criticism of your view. |
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20th Jan 2021 6:14pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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That's an over~egged hyperbole 
I wonder how often many of us have rushed certain journeys, saved 5 minutes at the other end, and then wondered if that 5 minutes was worth it as we wait for someone else to arrive, the warehouseman to finish his lunch before unloading us, or sit in a reception waiting for someone to finish a phone call. |
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21st Jan 2021 7:58am |
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| Huttopia Member Since: 23 Feb 2016 Location: West Midlands Posts: 1972
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/\ depends on journey length. I used to work on the science park in Oxford and get the train down from Worcester then cycle the 5 miles out and back each day from Oxford station to the office, come rain, snow, sun. It was quicker than a taxi or getting the bus. I only had 3 bikes stolen from Oxford station....
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21st Jan 2021 8:21am |
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| Whirly90 Member Since: 01 Sep 2016 Location: Ampshire Posts: 405  
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Good write up and i agree with most of it, but i would disagree with your thoughts on the test.
I don't think that making the test harder would help, every driver has proved that they are safe considerate drivers by passing the test. If they they then go on to drive like numpties that is not because of their lack of driving skills, it's because of their attitude behind the wheel, that's what we need to change. I drive a lot of miles and see drivers do a lot of things on the road, ranging from amusing to dangerous, and i don't expect everybody to drive 100% all the time. People make mistakes and we all need to be aware of that when we are driving/ cycling. BUT! Most of what i see are not mistakes, the driver has made a conscious decision to do something stupid or potentially dangerous. If they did it on their test they would fail so why do it now? That is the attitude we need to change. |
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21st Jan 2021 8:56am |
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| Dixy Member Since: 30 Nov 2020 Location: Somerset Posts: 51 
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But unfortunately its not, I live in rural West Somerset, the 2 A roads that feed the area are not fit for purpose but as windy roads are extremely attractive to the motorcycling community. As there have been so many KSIs and the council have no budget the solution has been to put many many miles of continuous double white lines despite them failing to comply with the TSM chapter 5. An arse up head down lycra clad warrior travels at more than 10mph on everything but the steepest accent, if 5 chose to commute they frequently double the journey time. They are frequently aware of the queue of 20 + vehicles behind them but fiercely protect their right to continue. As I said before 2 wrongs never make a right but if all road users would just show a little more consideration the highways would be a far happier place. Just as an aside the minimum carriageway width for continuous white lines was set so that cars could pass cyclists without having to contravene the lines despite that conflicting with the highway code above. |
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21st Jan 2021 11:45am |
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| Roger Member Since: 26 Apr 2018 Location: Hampshire Posts: 71 
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Trouble with this is that you can easily and safely overtake another vehicle on this road..... to do so will leave less than a metre of space, a distance that is likely to make most cyclists feel very uncomfortable. The defender looked far closer than appropriate in the OP, there are unfortunately just as many cars that don't leave enough room as there are cyclists that aren't pragmatic on the road. Then on the other hand I've experienced before a driver that was so determined to 'give the cyclist plenty of room' that in a situation with plenty of room for a safe overtake, they swerved far to far out and almost caused a head on with me travelling the other direction, it was madness, they left around 3m but forced me to take evasive action!!! All road users need to look out for each other, that includes being a courteous user as well as a courteous overtaker. |
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21st Jan 2021 5:49pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5829
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Agreed Whirly. My thoughts on ‘grading’ would be as follows: Fail the theoretical test 5 times max. I am stunned to think that there are some people driving who’ve taken 15 times to pass an easy multiple choice test. Fail the practical test 3 times max, if for a single ‘dangerous/red’ failure rather than a number of amber failure. Same thinking as above. Grade the pass as follows: Grade E: Worst pass. (Scraped through pass) Entitles driver to only use a 1l (or fixed max HP) car, carry no passengers, no driving after dark, no driving on motorways, no towing, no driving abroad etc etc. Higher insurance. Possibly a retest in 12mths? Better grades offer more freedom until you get to.... Grade A: Best pass. Perhaps 100%? Allows full use of your car, different levels of power, more freedom on the roads including carrying passengers etc. Further: The test should include the an obligatory module for all drivers that replicates the ‘speed awareness’ courses taken by convicted drivers. Many who’ve taken it say it is a good course, so why is it not given to people who’ve not even started? Preemptive rather than reactive. Get them thinking about their actions before they start bad habits. First year of driving, any driving conviction (drink, drugs, speeding, ignoring rules applicable to your grading) means an automatic 3-month ban for first offence. 12 month clock starts again on re-issue, second offence auto 6-month ban. Clock starts again, third offence auto 12-month ban. All drivers fixed to max power for 2-years. 200? 250? Anyone under 25 who wants to drive a ‘performance car’ after their first 2 years must pass the ‘performance car module’. Anyone unhappy with limitations imposed by their grading can re-sit the test to ‘improve’ their grade. This cannot be taken within 3-months of the previous test. Hopefully people will take further lessons and actually improve their driving in the interim, rather than just waiting and taking a punt. Whatever grade of pass, all new drivers to drive with a tracker for first 24 months. I obviously understand that this will never stop the very worst drivers, but it might make mediocre drivers better, it might make younger drivers more aware or considerate, and because it will be more expensive getting your driving licence might be more ‘earned’ than a ‘right’. Not wanting to disadvantage the less wealthy, there could well be a government scheme that helps people fund their test whereby an A-grade pass means they have nothing to pay back, down to an E grade pass where you have to repay 100% but over a number of months etc etc. Incentivise better driving. When I passed my test in the 80s there were far fewer drivers, far fewer cars, cars were far less powerful (my Fiat Uno was 70hp), there were more Police about, there were no mobile phones, no SM alerts to distract etc etc and whilst there was clearly speeding, drink/drug driving by youngsters etc, it was the ‘usual’ suspects, not across the board. Nowadays, whilst drink driving amongst youngsters has dropped dramatically, drug-driving has taken its place, but the real danger are new drivers in considerably more powerful cars, (albeit with better safety), who have far less respect for others in general (the self righteousness I mentioned previously) and live glued to their phone for their latest SM update. Mobile phones are the real danger and distractions will only continue to get worse. Yesterday I followed a new driver (in France they have to put an ‘A’ sticker on their car) down a 4km hill with light snow on the ground, bends and hairpins to negotiate etc. She drove the whole way down at 30kmh, causing a queue of 15 cars. Not because she was nervous, but because her right hand was attached to a mobile which she was constantly checking and then writing on. No amount of flashing or tooting on my part got her to look in her rear-view mirror, let alone stop doing what she was doing, let alone pull over. Utterly clueless. Because she doesn’t care/think about others in the event of a crash. Her drive was all about her. Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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22nd Jan 2021 8:32am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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I'm always struck by how many car adverts now seem to feature more on it's "connected" ability than on any feature remotely linked to it's core function.
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22nd Jan 2021 8:44am |
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| Mike c Member Since: 11 Aug 2017 Location: Maldon, Essex Posts: 930 
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Good point, but why on earth would most modern drivers be interested the core function of a vehicle?
It's all about the infotainment and projecting and image, whatever that be!  |
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22nd Jan 2021 9:11am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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This surprised me:
"According to the National Center for Health Statistics, 66% of all “preventable” cycling deaths in 2017 involved motor vehicles. One study indicated that in 50% of these car-bike crashes, the fault was attributed to the driver." https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/2...ing-a-bike So unless I'm having a senior moment 33% of these deaths are cyclists throwing themselves at the scenery, 33% are cyclists throwing themselves at motor vehicles, and only 33% are due to drivers. So where should the money be spent, if any at all, to lower overall deaths ~ target drivers or cyclists? |
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22nd Jan 2021 9:19am |
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