Huttopia wrote:

It’s only a car chaps. If you consider one of the main reasons folk come to this forum is for support / technical advice from people who’ve had it / done / made that mistake, then maybe the argument for having a separate forum for the new one gathers pace.

Couldn't agree more Huttopia, but before that separation happens, lets not forget that almost all of the new Def owners have previous history with LR and other British cars, and do love 'em all, warts and all.

I personally joined this forum for the very reasons you cite, ie: for support, / technical advice and of course to find like minded individuals. Not to be constantly advised that I am an idiot for even considering (let alone buying) the hideous plastic creation of Gerry McG instead of a solid work horse in the form of an Ineos Grenadier.

To Supacat, Grenadier and others who don't, won't and probably will never accept the new Def as a real "work Horse" I am glad that your love of the old Def continues.

Maybe I am in the minority, but I have a love of the old cars and the new ones. Yes they are totally different, yes the new Def has technology everywhere in it, and safety features that you could only dream of a few years ago - but make no mistake, it is still brilliant, totally capable on and off road, fit for the modern world, and a market disruptor. (but also very expensive.)

If you are determined that it's not the car for you, we all get it - perhaps some of you will be well served by the Ineos, (if indeed it ever makes it off of the french production line), but as a new car I'd rather have my new Defender thank you. And for nostalgia who needs Ineos, when you can restore an Old Defender and know it is an original, classic and rapidly appreciating in value.

Getting back to the reason for this thread - it was started by Supacat trying to take the P out of new Defender owners by inferring that if you own one you are in the same league as vacuous celebs. Well, I have to say, the list of vacuous celebs is very short judging from these few posts.

Shame.....I was looking forward to finding out which vacuous celeb I most aligned with !

Oldmowgli

Grenadier wrote:

If you read my posts properly Oldmowgli, I'm very clear that I have no issues with the Defender as a vehicle. I make that clear every time. I have an issue with it being the successor to LRs 70 odd years of utilitarian vehicles; and I'm far from the only one., And as a 'fan' of Defenders I find the direction JLR have chosen for this vehicle (apparently if you listen to GMcG forced by EU rules but roundly dispelled by Ineos) disappointing. The Defender remained the only utilitarian vehicle in LR's stable, now there are none. So all I've done is wonder why, with 8 SUVs already available from the JLR family, they feel they needed another one? That's all. They had enough already, they had ample opportunity to improve the Puma variant and continue 'iconic' legacy. Exactly what the Grenadier seems to be doing. So no, not planted in the past, not bitter, not twisted and never said it will be anything other than excellent, as all evidence seems to prove. But, I don't see it as a Defender, that's all, and I do feel that's disappointing given it was the most iconic 4x4 on the planet. Merc managed to keep the look, if not the utilitarian heritage of the G Wagen, Ford and Jeep both the look and the utilitarian usage, even Suzuki have managed a heritage styled utilitarian vehicle in the Jimmy and they're not one of the classic iconic 4x4 brands. So what's wrong with me asking why JLR chose this direction? And I reiterate, I'm far from the only one.

And you will also note that I've never criticised anyone for buying one, just read the post properly. People are entitled to do whatever they want with their cash. But the majority will not buy it for its off road capabilities but for either its looks, it's space or both. Like most SUV owners. So as for stereotypes, why not? How do you think car companies decide who their target audience is? They pick a stereotype. They pick the 'group' of people they mainly want to sell to. But stereotype is not a rule, it is not a law or legal requirement, so of course there will always be people who don't meet their target audience. Like you. They don't care, it's an extra sale. I've not criticised the stereotype themselves, but JLR choosing them as the target market for the New Def.

I've probably seen 25 new Defenders around here, and I'd strongly suggest that the owners all fitted a 'stereotype' as you call it, or target market as LR Marketing might call it. And based on clothes, age, the spec of the vehicles, where I saw most of them and the spec of the cars, I maintain they were in the majority wealthy urbanites. (Indeed the number plates were almost universally from Paris, Lyon, Geneva, Milan etc). So, Currently from my point of view close on 100% of new owners would never have owned the last version, but likely a Disco, a RR, Q7 etc. (I.e. Large, luxury SUVs, but never a Defender).

This can also be seen in many photos of new Defenders on the road, LR adverts and of course Urban's garage and indeed even how Urban (not me) describe it in the video: 'we don't want to drive up a mountain, we want a car to look good'. There will always be an exception, many exceptions, but the mass of sales I still maintain is going to be to luxury SUV owners. Are you telling me otherwise? Doesn't mean you shouldn't buy one and abuse one. But, Given the cost for starters it cancels out the majority of utility owners and given it's complicated architecture and electrics, a huge number of expedition/long-distance/over-land/military owners. So that was the previous Defender stereotype (perhaps we can upset some people by saying they have beards, drink ale and wear bush hats), and they've been brushed aside in one fell swoop, despite being the back bone (certainly for the first half century) of LRs sales, in favour of SUV owners. That is, in my opinion, undeniable and in my opinion, entirely wrong and worth expressing. Good luck to you if you buck that trend, but you will be the exception. I'm not attacking you, crack on, enjoy the New Def and batter the hell out of it, I hope I'm proved wrong. But one swallow (or even the handful of swallows on this forum) does not make a summer.

And to clarify, I also HAVE NO ISSUES WITH SUV OWNERS. None. I have many, many friends who are. And I like many SUVs from JLR and even the wider market. I've never attacked them, once. Having said that, if we don't think that the majority of SUV owners (majority, not ALL) don't follow a 'type', (especially JLR owners as they're a premium brand), then I think there's some denial going on. And I say again, I've never critisiced the car and it's capability. I've only ever questioned JLR and the direction they've chosen for this vehicle. Journalists seem to be allowed to criticise a car, a brand, a driver type and get paid for it, 'liked', 'followed' but I get criticised for merely questioning the direction a brand has taken for a vehicle that I like very very much. Not the car, not the owner. The brand and its direction. I like moving with the times, but I also respect heritage (the history of mankind is built on heritage, history, legacy of culture etc) and sometimes, just sometimes, it's nice to respect it. And many many brands have succesfully done so whilst still modernising.

And Juwivive, I've never posted, quote 'stereotypes of New Defender owners as effete latte-sipping Guardian-reading metrosexuals'. The cravat is mentioned, as any regular follower of JLR will know, as a nod to Gerry McGovern. Just an amusing (or perhaps not so amusing) cliché of the man who has directed the look of all LRs, and therefore this new Defender, for the past decade. But as mentioned above, millions is spent annually on research into target markets for all goods, and indeed people follow 'brands' because they match their own personal stereotype - if they didn't, all cars would look the same - so I don't feel I'm wrong in saying that the new buyer that JLR is targeting is more closely aligned to the plethora of SUV owners than Puma and pre-Puma generation owners. It's neither a criticism of the owner or the target market or the car itself. It's a critiscm of JLRs policy.

As for my Username, I presume you think I fit the Guardsman 'stereotype' and you'd be entirely right. I'm a tall, pompous, hoity toity, toffee-nosed, posh chinless wonder who wears gold cords and drinks sherry. Well spotted.

Wow, I think you need a hug Grenadier. Are you perhaps suffering isolation at the foot of Mont Blanc ?

Oldmowgli

Oldmowgli wrote:

Getting back to the reason for this thread - it was started by Supacat trying to take the P out of new Defender owners by inferring that if you own one you are in the same league as vacuous celebs. Well, I have to say, the list of vacuous celebs is very short judging from these few posts.

You actually couldn't be further from the truth. I post many photos of various vehicles ~ and previous famous owners ~ here's an example:

https://www.defender2.net/forum/post346923...ers#346923

And looking back at that post, reminds me, this chap has probably got one in his garage:


Click image to enlarge

I've not been selective in postings to this thread, these are what have come through my news feeds.

What have you got against Ant Anstead ~ I actually think he's a pretty top bloke?

NOW PLEASE ~ CAN WE GET BACK ON TOPIC

Supacat wrote:

Anyone know who this is?



Hopefully, this one meets the Forums exacting standards of what qualifies as a celebrity...

Not sure if Tango Man pictured is a real celeb but boy those wheels are a sight to behold (!) and what is with the white square around the door handle ?

Living in Oz as I now do, I must have missed out on whoever Ant Anstead is. I'm sure he's a very nice person but I am personally more aligned with Ant and Dec..... maybe they have matching Defenders ? Though probably not Dec as he couldn't reach the pedals, but Ant McPartlin..... he's just the sort to wear a cravat isn't he ?

Telemarkskier wrote:

I don't give two figs as to who has bought one. I have, I like it, enjoy driving it and anticipate owning it for many years to come.

Ditto.

(But currently only when I can wear a cravat to appease Grenadier, as unfortunately I am not a 6' 7" pugilist so he will continue not to love me or my car....at least until someone can get to Mont Blanc and give him a hug.)

Oldmowgli