 | Home > Maintenance & Modifications > Wheel bearing wobble - why? |
 
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1845  
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Hi guys,
I've been chasing a poor brake pedal for a while, and it's come down to wheel wobble/bearing adjustment. What I thought was in good order obviously wasn't. Driver's front wheel. The bearing needed replacement a little while ago and, because of where I was, and my travel commitments, it was done by a garage. I think it was a Toyo bearing, so at least a make I've heard of. Today, I've refitted and tightened the bearing three times, trying to get the movement out of it, so it's been nipped up beyond the workshop manual torque, but I'm happy that it's still OK as far as a bearing goes - it's spinning fine. Unfortunately there's still a little lateral movement when holding the wheel at 3 and 9 o'clock. Better than it was when I started, but still there. I have an MOT on Thursday. I think (hope!) that it's slight enough to be an advisory, so that's not really the concern. I'm just trying to figure out what might be the issue. The stub axle looks serviceable. No obvious ridges, and it feels pretty good, although the threads have some tight spots at the beginning, they work OK. So - what else could I be dealing with? Is it possible that the Toyo bearings are out of spec? Is there a different spec for Defender wheel bearings across the range, so that the wrong part number was fitted? Or could the stub axle itself be out?Where that came from is lost in the mists of time. I actually didn't check whether the stub bolts to the swivel housing were tight but they've been there for several years at least so I think they'd have caused problems before now if they were loose. It's a little academic (MOT aside) because the plan in the next couple of months is to build up a wholly new axle. I've recognised that what's there is due to be rebuilt after probably some 15 years. But that said, it would be good to have others thoughts on where the movement might be coming from. Ta. D Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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14th Nov 2020 8:53pm |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1845
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Thanks BW,
I've never had the stake nut and spacer - two nut system is the only one I've ever used. So when I said that I'd nipped the bearing up beyond the torque of the spec in the WSM, what I meant was that I'd done this with the two nut system, using the WSM procedure of 50Nm, 90' back, 10Nm, lock washer, lock nut, 50Nm etc etc etc . It's because I can't adjust that up that I was puzzled enough to post in the first place. TBH I haven't checked if the play goes around the clock. Without an assistant to rock the wheel while I was watching from the other side, I'd have started to wonder about the swivel pin bearings at the 12/6 position. I'll see if I can get someone else roped in to try that out. Because the bearings were recently fitted in a garage, I gave them the benefit of the doubt and tried to work with what they'd done. I assumed I'd just be able to nip up the bearing, but it is possible that the inner races aren't quite right. The next step would be to strip out those bearings and use one of the Timken sets I have to hand. If I do the work myself, at least I can check it all each step of the way. One thing I can say is that the Toyo ones didn't come from a blue box. Hey ho. It looks like your opinion is that there will be something wrong somewhere which will make it difficult/impossible to 'tighten out' the slack. In which case, assuming it gets by the MOT, then I'll just live with it until I can get my refurbed axle built up and swapped. Maybe when this one is out, cleaned and on a bench, I could look at the hub and stub and see what that might show up. Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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14th Nov 2020 11:07pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17446  
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Generally if the bearings are slack you'll feel movement around the clock, and if the swivels are slack you'll feel it at the 6/12 position only and it will also be heavier - you'll need a lot more effort to rock the slack since you're lifting the wheel, hub assembly and swivel.
I couldn't remember the age of your vehicle, hence the question about whether you had the 2-nut system, or the abhorrent stake nut. Every time I do anything to Defender wheel-bearings I am struck by the way that my Series Is all have bigger and stronger hub components than Defenders, something that just feels wrong and reeks of "value engineering". Brunel would not approve! |
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14th Nov 2020 11:19pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3424  
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Do you still feel the play if someone holds the steering on full lock to the left (stopper on swivel housing against axle flange)? 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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15th Nov 2020 5:39am |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2656 
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Is the thrust washer fitted between the inner nut and the outer bearing?
I’ve seen them omitted which means the nut runs out of thread on the stub before the bearing is tight enough. |
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15th Nov 2020 8:53am |
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| Bluericky Member Since: 26 Jun 2014 Location: Cornwall Posts: 647 
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I have exactly the same issue , to be honest I’ve slightly given up on it. It’s so slight that I should think many people wouldn’t notice! It’s causing the offside brake to squeak when the steering is at hard lock .
I’m also fairly sure it’s to blame for vibrations over 60mph . You say it affects your brakes . In what way ? https://www.instagram.com/hustynminepark/ |
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15th Nov 2020 9:12am |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2168 
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On other vehicles its has alays been damage / wear on the stub axle (a few thou's of an inch at most) but enough to cause issues and ultimately causes the bearing to fail far earlier than expected
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15th Nov 2020 10:18am |
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| ickle Member Since: 22 Jul 2010 Location: South Vendee Posts: 1786  
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There's no way the garage could have replaced the spacer between the bearings is there?
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15th Nov 2020 10:39am |
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| Bluericky Member Since: 26 Jun 2014 Location: Cornwall Posts: 647
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I believe he’s on the twin nut system so no spacers required https://www.instagram.com/hustynminepark/
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15th Nov 2020 10:40am |
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| ickle Member Since: 22 Jul 2010 Location: South Vendee Posts: 1786
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I read that but if a helpful mechanic has re installed a spacer thinking it should be there - could this be causing his problem?
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15th Nov 2020 10:49am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17446
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Note that the OP is saying that there is play in one axis only, not that the wheel-bearings are loose (when there'd be play in all axes).
If there was a spacer fitted when there shouldn't be or if the inner nut had run out of thread the wheel would wobble every which way. |
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15th Nov 2020 11:59am |
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| Will@LRW Member Since: 04 May 2019 Location: UK Posts: 183
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I would check for any play in the track rod ends, which can occur in the 3/9 o clock position when you heave on the wheel
I tend to set my phone up and film it, so I can see what's moving relative to what LR Workshop Find a Defender's history and spec: https://defender.lrworkshop.com |
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15th Nov 2020 2:35pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17446
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For the avoidance of doubt, my comments above are on the basis Don has correctly identified movement between the hub and stub as stated in the original question. If that is a misdiagnosis and the movement is elsewhere, there are many further possibilities....
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15th Nov 2020 4:46pm |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1845
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Thanks for all the replies folks. I didn't manage to look at this any further today - my time was not my own - we needed to go visiting, and then I had a log store to build.....
I probably won't pick up on all the points raised but: Definitely no spacer involved, and definitely a thrust washer fitted - though the 'running out of thread' idea did cross my mind, I can't see how, unless one of the inner races is mis-fitted somehow, but as I say it feels fine in all other respects except for the slight wobble. Like I said, I had the bearings out yesterday to check/regrease - but I didn't check the inner races. How did it affect the brakes? When I first lifted the wheel off the ground yesterday, there was a significant wobble. I've tightened most of that out (for the moment at least). I think the wobble was probably pushing the pads away from the disc, resulting in a longer pedal on the first press, but good second time). On a straight piece of road, I might be surprised and find the first pedal was ok; go round a roundabout, or a series of bends, and the poor first pedal would be obvious. This has been eventually leading me to diagnose a wheel/bearing/disc issue, rather than air in the system. Track rod end - possibly. I have not long fitted all new drag link and track rod but it's feasible that it might need nipping up. As I said above, I haven't had a chance to get an assistant involved, so that I could see exactly what's moving. Using the phone to record it is a good idea - I'm obviously just over that generation gap when such a thing occurs to me naturally! I'm pretty sure it's the hub, rather than the swivel bearings - but I could be wrong. Away from home early tomorrow for a couple of days, but I'll investigate further on Wednesday. Thanks again for the comments Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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15th Nov 2020 5:24pm |
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