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| gilarion Member Since: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Wales Posts: 5109   
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100% behind this poster's message. The new Defender is an entirely different car lets have a new category Defender 2020 end of! For those who like Welsh Mountains and narrow boats have a look at my videos and photos at..
http://www.youtube.com/user/conwy1 |
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1st Nov 2020 11:26pm |
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| Wild Card 90 Member Since: 03 Dec 2014 Location: Gerlingen Posts: 1060  
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Sulisuli, well done bringing this issue up.
D2net is an amazing forum, and although I have a number of hobbies and several enthusiast cars, this is the only forum I am active on. In a quiet moment I will often drop in here. I feel that it gives me, an ex-pat living in Germany, a piece of British culture that I would otherwise miss greatly. It feels a little bit like going down to my local pub used to. Well done Martin, and thank you! You´re an excellent landlord!
It is a sensitive subject. I too find little of relevance within the 2020 Defender posts, other than to amuse myself about the very first world problems the new customers are having. Having now test driven the new Defender, I can at least follow and relate to the subjects and issues. I however, will continue to invest in my Puma, and share my experiences. Generally the people on this forum, are not defined by an engine, be it an NA diesel, TDi,TD5, Puma or the newest model. And Defender is in the name of the forum, even though both Series and Defender are embraced. Defender is a mindset. An attitude towards life. Whether you live in the suburbs of Birmingham or a northern corner of Scotland, this forum is a melting pot for all manner of issues and personalities. Many of the off-topic subjects that have been voiced on here, I have found interesting and relevant, because they are voiced by a folk I can relate to. Just like down my local back in the day, the older generation had to accept at some point new faces and younger generations standing at the bar discussing new world subjects. Some old boys did, and the conversations generated as these two worlds colided, were excellent. Change is tough. In so many ways, 2020 is the toughest challenge of all. Lets stick together. 1998 Tdi 90 SW, 2008 Td4 90 SW, 2012 2.2 90 SW, 2" raised Trailmaster/Terrafirma Heavy Track Raids, 255 MTs, Recaro CSs, anorak, wellingtons |
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2nd Nov 2020 6:09am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804  
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I’m with Sulisuli.
As Wild Card said, the forum is for like minded people, however I’m personally of the view that apart from the rare occasion, most new owners of the new Defender are in no way of the same mindset as the old. They’re of a semi-luxury/semi-rugged SUV mindset, certainly not that of the old owners who love the Defender for many, various reasons including character, shape, utility, price, ability, flexibility, irritability, over-lander, unique to each owner, modifiable etc. Tim in Scotland and J77 are amongst those exceptions, but speak to MOST people who own a Puma, Tdi or right back to a Series, and there’ll be something (if not many things) that I mentioned above in their checklist. Most owners. Even if only one ‘thing’ about Puma and pre-Puma. I just don’t see the current owners thinking the same way. Just look at the plethora of pimped versions appearing all over the internet. Road going SUV, not a utilitarian 4x4. As for ignoring it, at the moment I’m super busy and appear once every couple of days. I feel the same as the OP because after 2 days away I can come back to 30-40% Defender2020 posts. Yes, I don’t have to open them, but trawling through them get to the stuff that is interesting (and as previously mentioned that means often the whole world/lifestyle of Defender ownership) is just irritating. When it’s that many, it’s too many. Importantly, I don’t even think JLR or GMcG aimed the new Def at what I/we’d consider to be the traditional core of Defender owners. Far from it. The look, the price point, the purpose of the vehicle (despite its clear ability and the ads filmed in deepest Africa) etc have nothing to do with the previous models. Will many farmers, armies, overlanders etc want to buy one? No. So obviously so, that it’s led to a gap in the market about to be filled by the Grenadier. So if they don’t even think that the core of this forum is who they’d want to buy the new Def, how can it be on this forum. I have nothing against the vehicle per se. But for all the reasons I mentioned above I personally do not see it as a worthy successor to 75 years of British motoring history, which we on the forum are often fiercely proud of, yet the vast majority of new owners wouldn’t have a clue about. So I don’t think this forum is for them. What will be interesting to see is if a new forum is created by Martin (and as others have said, thank you for all your effort) how many people join, what they discuss, what becomes the core message or thread. I don’t see it being the same as here, and if that’s case, then surely two forums are the way to go. To summarise. It’s not about whether the name of the two vehicles is the same, but whether the spirit and DNA are the same. They’re not.... Just my two pennies worth. PS. Had JLR launched the Grenadier, then it could stay on the forum. Different aim and different vehicle by the producer which most definitely resonates with this forum’s core readership. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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2nd Nov 2020 6:33am |
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| chopcat Member Since: 11 Sep 2012 Location: Pembrokeshire Posts: 411 
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I have to agree with the sentiments of the OP and am sure that there is a way to allow, what is a fantastic forum and resource - (cheers Martin it is a stunning effort and superb resource), to work for both sorts of vehicles. Because yes they are totally different, as is what you can do with then and what you can do to them.
I admit that my twice daily forum experience has been altered by needing to sift through material that is not relevant to me and our traditional 90’s as there is nothing in common between the two. One can see what people are doing to their original 110’s and lightweights and apply that to ours but not with the new one. So the result has been that I have not been participating as much having given up reading all the new posts as I always used to. I still use the forum as a resource (im replacing the A arm uj at the moment) and with a search have found loads of useful tips. So my thought is would it not be possible to create two paths through the site one for new and one for the rest, or maybe, allow a way of filtering the 2020 posts by way of preferences as it may well be that the 2020 owners will benefit from the traditional forum very much more that the other way round. |
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2nd Nov 2020 7:21am |
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| kenzle8a Member Since: 12 Feb 2020 Location: None Posts: 1074 
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As someone who has owned / run a forum in the past, and delt with new models and variations coming in its a hard choice to balance.
There’s a flip side to consider that some of the new owners might get interested in the older ones and take on projects saving them from export. We did a filter system for people who had no interest in the new models. |
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2nd Nov 2020 8:03am |
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| Hufflepuff Member Since: 25 Oct 2014 Location: Hampshire Posts: 727 
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I strongly disagree that the forum is being overwhelmed by posts about the new Defender?
Looking at the general channel at the moment, I see a single post about the new one - which is the waving at them post. Sure the new 2020 subsection is busy - but what's wrong with that? Surely we want an active forum, and like it or not, Land Rover called it a 'Defender', even though in my view they should have chosen a new name for it, creating a new market sector for their vehicles - one notch above the 'farmers truck'. 2005 Td5 90 XS 1989 V8 110 CSW |
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2nd Nov 2020 9:05am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17362  
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This exact question was discussed at interminable length some time ago, and the consensus then was that there was room for both in the forum (the forum was originally set up by Martin for the New Defender not the Old Defender, but since Martin is way more efficient that Landrover the forum arrived a decade or so in advance of the vehicle).
From a personal standpoint the new Defender is a vehicle in which I have no interest whatsoever, but I have been intrigued/amused/horrified/appalled by Landrover's competence and attitudes with its release and support, and as a result have found myself reading more threads about it than I thought I would. When the subject was last discussed there was talk of a forum feature being added to allow particular threads (eg "2020 Defender") to be excluded from the "new posts" search, but I don't know if that actually happened in the end. Personally I would prefer this forum if the new Defender was in a separate forum, since it is as different from the old Defender as is, for example, a Disco3, but I feel that we are all guests of Martin and not here to tell him what to do. You don't have to read the bits you're not interested in (and there are plenty of threads that are not about the new Defender that also don't interest me). Ultimately if you don't like it, there is always the option to vote with your feet and go off to some other inferior community elsewhere on the internet. Just my view..... |
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2nd Nov 2020 9:26am |
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| Ads90 Member Since: 16 Jun 2008 Location: Cots-on-the-Wolds Posts: 809 
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I just had a look at the Mini2 forum out of interest, and the Classic only makes an appearance in 'Off Topic'.
The same, but not the same though - the new Mini has been around longer & in much larger numbers so I imagine the classic owners have migrated to a dedicated forum. Or maybe Mini2 only started once the new Mini was released and was always dedicated to the new model - I dunno. Personally I don't mind both Defenders coexisting here, for now at least. Maybe as the classic gets older, and is only in the hands of vintage classic enthusiasts (as per classic mini), and the new Defender also gets replacement models (Def3, Def4 etc.) the two will naturally split as the proportion of relatable posts diminishes. |
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2nd Nov 2020 11:38am |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4206 
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I don't mind the new Defender being here even though it's not for me, maybe I'll get one in the future. The question I have is what will happen when New Defender owners need to start posting on specific subjects like maintenance and modification, or technical etc. Do they go in those forum areas and mix up with Old Defender threads, stick to putting everything in the 2020 section or get their own subsections? 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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2nd Nov 2020 11:50am |
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| Wild Card 90 Member Since: 03 Dec 2014 Location: Gerlingen Posts: 1060
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Bluest
A very good point! 1998 Tdi 90 SW,
2008 Td4 90 SW, 2012 2.2 90 SW, 2" raised Trailmaster/Terrafirma Heavy Track Raids, 255 MTs, Recaro CSs, anorak, wellingtons |
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2nd Nov 2020 1:23pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753
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Bluest, take a look at how Martin segregated the L320 and L494 Range Rover Sports over on RRSport.co.Uk. I think that’s how this forum could look too. I’m not sure that the forum software allows certain sections of new posts to be “banned” from the new posts lists Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come
2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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2nd Nov 2020 1:33pm |
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| rockster57 Member Since: 15 Nov 2014 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 937 
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Interesting subject - and as usual, many well considered contributions adding depth to the discussion. Personally I find it difficult to see any connection between the 2020 and the earlier generations. I feel JLR have simply exploited the Defender name on a new model that has no relation whatsoever to what has gone before. It’s apples and pears. I’m not inferring anything negative in this comparison. I’m just expressing a personal view that it’s a totally different vehicle.
I catch up with forum posts daily (often several times a day) but I am selective. I have no interest in the 2020 so I never read anything from that section. Consequently I can feel disappointed if the bulk of my “new posts” searches is 2020 material. I suspect once the 2020 content reaches a critical mass it will financially capable of existing as a stand alone and we will see it migrate to its own forum. Until then I will live with things as they are. Echoing a point already made in the discussion, I too feel I can relate to fellow Defender enthusiasts here. Similar mindsets, outlooks, values etc. Plus many here are so helpful and generous with their time. The forum has an enviable core of members with vast experience, knowledge and expertise. Their opinions I value greatly and are very grateful of. Long may the camaraderie continue. |
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2nd Nov 2020 1:38pm |
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| Mike c Member Since: 11 Aug 2017 Location: Maldon, Essex Posts: 928 
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Like many have said, you dont have to read the 2020 section, I certainly avoid it as the new vehicle does not interest me for reasons others have already mentioned.
As a side note, I am also not buying LRO mag/LRM anywhere near as often these days due to the increasing coverage of the new vehicle. I do now find classic Land Rover mag more my thing.... Thing is, this is a great forum so I will happily use it still just avoid the 2020 section, simples! |
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2nd Nov 2020 1:59pm |
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| Mo Murphy Member Since: 01 Jun 2008 Location: Letchworth Garden City, Herts Posts: 2224 
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I don't frequent the 2020 forum for same reasons so eloquently put forward by Rockster.
Those that do frequent it are possessed by demons and I feel much safer out here with my pitchfork, flaming brand, surrounded by fellow serfs. Long may it continue that way ! Mo The Land Rover 90 - Many are called, few are chosen. 50 Shades of Pennine Grey |
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2nd Nov 2020 2:06pm |
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