 | Home > General & Technical (L663) > Looking at new Defender as new company car |
 
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| jav-uk Member Since: 29 Mar 2010 Location: Shropshire Posts: 112   
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Yes, spot on BlackWolf, I should have checked, my point was the the HardTop is essentialy a conversion of 90/110 Station Wagon. N1 class covers LGV, CDV and I think MPV, all have their own caveats but the tax class covers Commercial vehicles up to 3.5T GLW. I am aware of a loophole in this class, an old 110 SW qualifies for N1 tax class but if you have more than 5 seats BIK cannot be claimed as a LGV (HMRC love a complication!). - Supacat has valid concerns re the recent ruling. I would like clarification if this ruling only applies to a N1 class vehicle modified post production by an outside third party. - If you cannot get commercial business tax benefits for the HardTop version then its development was a pointless exercise for UK JLR. I am wondering where AndrewS gets his info, I want to trust his post re tax and bik classification. - PS. Welshsurferdude, I have recently seen sub £200/Mth lease deals on L200 and Ranger, NewDefender is still £450/Mth++++ Paul Pondering a New 90 Commercial 2020 Evoque * 2014 110 SW JE Stage 2. *2010 110 Utility. JE Stage 2. *2007 110 SW *2003 90 JE Stage 2. *2000 90 SW If its not leaking it ain't full. |
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22nd Sep 2020 12:39pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018  
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It's a red herring, if you look at what was said in the First-tier Tribunal: "Mr Phillips also referred to Directive 2007/46/EC in relation to vehicle definitions. He noted that the three vehicles involved in this appeal could be classified as M class (cars) or generally N class (commercial vehicles), subject to final adaptation and intended use. Again, I found this reference to this Directive of very limited relevance, because the statutory test is different." Last edited by Supacat on 22nd Sep 2020 4:08pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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22nd Sep 2020 4:06pm |
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| leunknow Member Since: 22 Sep 2020 Location: Paris Posts: 3  
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well done
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22nd Sep 2020 4:07pm |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3497 
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Look on the bright side, think of the people this stuff is keeping gainfully employed?
If they just had a list that said yes or no, unemployment figures would go through the roof 
It often amazes me just how complicated our Tax system is in this country (I expect this is not unique except so it was alleged in Greece where hardly anyone seem to be paying tax  ) |
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22nd Sep 2020 4:13pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753 
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German Dutch and French (probably Belgium too) are way more complex than ours. I used to have to work out payroll for ship’s crew every month and for those countries the German income tax on overtime was so complex I just had to send in each crew members summary sheets and the office payroll in Hamburg calculated the final pay. The Dutch weren’t far behind but I had an excel sheet from the office for them that worked out the rates on the different ways the overtime was broken down, it had to be itemised by jobs done in overtime and there were different rates fir different jobs! U.K. crew were way easier to calculate. It was all so much easier when payroll for everyone got moved to the office to do! Russians, Ukraine’s, Indian, USA and Filipino payroll was even easier than ours - no income tax to deduct, it was the seaman’s responsibility to pay it not the employers. Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come
2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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22nd Sep 2020 4:24pm |
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| AndrewS Member Since: 10 Apr 2007 Location: Hereford Posts: 3707 
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Go ask your dealer or your local tax office  130's have feeling's as well you know  |
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22nd Sep 2020 8:58pm |
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| N1FWD Member Since: 08 Aug 2014 Location: Dundee Posts: 14 
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But if you have no second row seats and no window behind the driver be very careful about speed limits?
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22nd Sep 2020 9:19pm |
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| AndrewS Member Since: 10 Apr 2007 Location: Hereford Posts: 3707
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Correct 130's have feeling's as well you know
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22nd Sep 2020 10:04pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Some general rules:
Van and pickup tax explained - everything you need to know https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/adv...tax-guide/ Van and pickup speed limits explained https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/advice/speed-limits/ Edited to add another link: Company-car tax explained https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice...-explained Last edited by Supacat on 4th Oct 2020 5:41am. Edited 1 time in total |
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24th Sep 2020 5:44am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17367 
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^^ Great links, those, thanks for posting.
Nice to find a reputable site that has a clear, unambiguous, and factually correct explanation of two complex subjects. |
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24th Sep 2020 8:37am |
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| walfy Member Since: 29 Aug 2007 Location: Frome Posts: 2658
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Just sent this to my accountant for confirmation and this is his response Hi Mark This figure is only relevant if the Defender is treated as a van for tax purposes – it is not as straight forward as simply using the “N1” construction as a guide HMRC rules are very clear about what classifies as a van and I would want to check their lists before giving you a definitive answer The VAT treatment is as mentioned before, if the payload is over one tonne, we are OK Yes you would pay national insurance (via a P11d) £3,490 x 13.8% - this is an annual charge of £482 You would also have the £3,490 included on your personal tax return and this would be taxed at 20% as you are a basic rate tax payer So you could have two bills in effect, one for £482 (payable by the company) and £698 (payable by you personally) If the Defender is not treated as a “van” then these charges could be considerably greater Hope that helps So it seems there are a few HMRC hoops to jump through and we shouldn't just rely on the N1 classification. Taken from an online review it seems the 110 fails the 1 tonne payload threshold. Total payload capacity varies depending on specification, with the 90 model capable of hauling a maximum of 670kg. The 110 can carry between 778 to 800kg. Not everyones situation will be the same as mine, I use my entire tax allowance on my MOD pension, and run my company wage at 20% tax. Not sure if you don't have a pension it will be the same 110 D250 SE HT 110 USW SOLD RRE HSE Dynamic Gone, wife killed it VOLVO XC60 R Dynamic with some toys Polaris RZR 900XP SOLD |
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6th Oct 2020 1:56pm |
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| walfy Member Since: 29 Aug 2007 Location: Frome Posts: 2658
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So my previous response was from the bean counter who does my tax return, I sent the same email to the tax/vat specialist in the company. His response is a bit different but I trust him implicitly.
We all need to wait for HMRC to make their decision. This was my mail to him Alan I'm after a bit of tax advice, I'm looking at changing my company car. I've had my current Defender for 6 yrs and it's time to move her on. I'm thinking of the new Defender, but the Hardtop variant. It's been marketed as a commercial by LandRover, but we all know car salesmen will tell you anything to sell a car. Has HMRC designated this model as a commercial for VAT reclamation and BiK purposes. I've had a quick look at the internet and I think the BiK will increase slightly from my current costs to £600ish, and the van tax will also increase but only slightly. I need to see 1 in the flesh before I place an order but need to be sure it's compliant or it becomes to expensive for me. Regards Mark And his reply to me Mark I am yet to see one in the flesh like you, but like what I have seen so far. Unfortunately no, HMRC have not classified these as commercial vehicles. However, the last time that they updated their list of commercial vehicles for VAT purposes was in 2015, so that may give you an idea of how little guidance they are giving and how out of date their list of commercial vehicles currently is. It appears from my reading (first time that I have looked in to this vehicle’s spec) that there is no option to have seats behind the driver. There is an option for a third ‘jump seat’ in the front, between the driver and passenger, but it appears that you can not have any further seats as standard or an option. It also appears that the rear ‘windows’ are actually body panels and totally obscured. The 110 appears to have rear doors that open, but only to allow side access to the loading area as there were with the Discovery 2/3 commercial variants which were confirmed commercial vehicles by HMRC. To be able to look at this further I would need to know the exact details of the actual specification you are looking at and whether the variant you are looking at is just one row of seats etc. Have you any details that have been sent to you by a salesperson? For supplementary information, there is a long running case currently going to appeal (delayed by COVID) relating to ‘double cab’ vans provided by Coca Cola to their employees. In essence HMRC have “won” a case stating that the VW Kombi double cab is a car for BIK purposes (although it still remains a van at the moment for VAT purposes) whereas the Vauxhall Vivaro variant (double cab) is still a commercial vehicle. The difference is that there is a gap in the second row of seats in the Vauxhall that is not in the VW which is able to be used for load carriage, which allows it to pass the threshold for a ‘vehicle primarily designed for the carriage of goods’. The lack of that little amount of space in the VW puts it just under that threshold. The case rumbles on, but it could have wider implications for other vehicles and also shows how much attention HMRC are applying to challenging the status of vehicles, without actually being proactive in giving guidance to get it right in the first place. Regarding the BIK costs, these have not significantly changed over the last few years, so would not alter significantly other than inflationary annual increases. Obviously that is subject to any future changes to the rules or rates being brought in! Let me know if you wish to look at this further. Kind regards Alan 110 D250 SE HT 110 USW SOLD RRE HSE Dynamic Gone, wife killed it VOLVO XC60 R Dynamic with some toys Polaris RZR 900XP SOLD |
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11th Oct 2020 1:41pm |
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| walfy Member Since: 29 Aug 2007 Location: Frome Posts: 2658
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So my previous response was from the bean counter who does my tax return, I sent the same email to the tax/vat specialist in the company. His response is a bit different but I trust him implicitly.
We all need to wait for HMRC to make their decision. This was my mail to him Alan I'm after a bit of tax advice, I'm looking at changing my company car. I've had my current Defender for 6 yrs and it's time to move her on. I'm thinking of the new Defender, but the Hardtop variant. It's been marketed as a commercial by LandRover, but we all know car salesmen will tell you anything to sell a car. Has HMRC designated this model as a commercial for VAT reclamation and BiK purposes. I've had a quick look at the internet and I think the BiK will increase slightly from my current costs to £600ish, and the van tax will also increase but only slightly. I need to see 1 in the flesh before I place an order but need to be sure it's compliant or it becomes to expensive for me. Regards Mark And his reply to me Mark I am yet to see one in the flesh like you, but like what I have seen so far. Unfortunately no, HMRC have not classified these as commercial vehicles. However, the last time that they updated their list of commercial vehicles for VAT purposes was in 2015, so that may give you an idea of how little guidance they are giving and how out of date their list of commercial vehicles currently is. It appears from my reading (first time that I have looked in to this vehicle’s spec) that there is no option to have seats behind the driver. There is an option for a third ‘jump seat’ in the front, between the driver and passenger, but it appears that you can not have any further seats as standard or an option. It also appears that the rear ‘windows’ are actually body panels and totally obscured. The 110 appears to have rear doors that open, but only to allow side access to the loading area as there were with the Discovery 2/3 commercial variants which were confirmed commercial vehicles by HMRC. To be able to look at this further I would need to know the exact details of the actual specification you are looking at and whether the variant you are looking at is just one row of seats etc. Have you any details that have been sent to you by a salesperson? For supplementary information, there is a long running case currently going to appeal (delayed by COVID) relating to ‘double cab’ vans provided by Coca Cola to their employees. In essence HMRC have “won” a case stating that the VW Kombi double cab is a car for BIK purposes (although it still remains a van at the moment for VAT purposes) whereas the Vauxhall Vivaro variant (double cab) is still a commercial vehicle. The difference is that there is a gap in the second row of seats in the Vauxhall that is not in the VW which is able to be used for load carriage, which allows it to pass the threshold for a ‘vehicle primarily designed for the carriage of goods’. The lack of that little amount of space in the VW puts it just under that threshold. The case rumbles on, but it could have wider implications for other vehicles and also shows how much attention HMRC are applying to challenging the status of vehicles, without actually being proactive in giving guidance to get it right in the first place. Regarding the BIK costs, these have not significantly changed over the last few years, so would not alter significantly other than inflationary annual increases. Obviously that is subject to any future changes to the rules or rates being brought in! Let me know if you wish to look at this further. Kind regards Alan 110 D250 SE HT 110 USW SOLD RRE HSE Dynamic Gone, wife killed it VOLVO XC60 R Dynamic with some toys Polaris RZR 900XP SOLD |
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11th Oct 2020 1:48pm |
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| Leviathan Member Since: 24 Oct 2015 Location: Staffs Posts: 248
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Sorry if this as been answered elsewhere, but can I be 100% sure that a 90 or 110 HT is considered a commercial vehicle for BIK purposes?
The Land Rover dealer is telling me it is but there doesnt seem to be a definitive cast iron confirmation in this, or any other thread I can find regarding this. Has anyone on here got a hard top as a company car? And if so are you paying the flat rate BIK for a commercial vehicle? I cant seem to find any pertinent official guidance. Thanks |
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2nd Jan 2024 6:38pm |
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