 | Home > General & Technical (L663) > Looking at new Defender as new company car |
 
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3498   
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https://www.gov.uk/government/publications...combi-vans
There is a list on this .gov.uk web site, but it is way way out of date and doesn't mention the new Defender. I can't remember, but I seem to recall that HMRC were trying to cut down on the use of commercials as company cars. I just can't remember where I read it. |
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20th Sep 2020 1:23pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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Right ~ things may have moved on but it's a particularly complex area, and I was imagining the advice given when looking at double cab pickups:
"Customs has been in discussions with the major manufacturers as to which of their models will no longer be regarded as cars. Potential purchasers can obtain advice about the payload of a particular model from the manufacturer or dealer." https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/e...l/eim23150 is not a bad way to go as an initial starting point. And there's also the current advice relating to the old Defender: "Land Rover Defender Station Wagons HMRC has always considered these vehicles to be cars for tax purposes for the reasons given above, i.e. that they are mechanically propelled road vehicles, and none of the exceptions in s115(1) (EIM23100) apply to prevent them being cars." https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/e...l/eim23155 |
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20th Sep 2020 1:26pm |
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| walfy Member Since: 29 Aug 2007 Location: Frome Posts: 2658 
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But the USW was classed as duel purpose vehicle, so taxed as a car but entitled to the BiK of a commercial. Hence the reason why I purchased a USW rather than a SW.
I'm off to look at the new Defender hardtop on Sat in Bristol. Will ask the question about VAT claimable and BiK compliance. I would assume it will be because the Disco5 has a commercial variant but that has a second row of seats 110 D250 SE HT 110 USW SOLD RRE HSE Dynamic Gone, wife killed it VOLVO XC60 R Dynamic with some toys Polaris RZR 900XP SOLD |
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20th Sep 2020 5:25pm |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2150 
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On the 'old' defender it was only the 90H/T and the 110 USW that qualified as a commercial vehicle for tax purposes......
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20th Sep 2020 7:39pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17372 
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I thought the 110 double cab did as well (especially since it has a 1 tonne payload capacity).
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20th Sep 2020 8:46pm |
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| AndrewS Member Since: 10 Apr 2007 Location: Hereford Posts: 3707 
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I have put every N1 Defender I've owned down as commercial, and claimed the vat back. I apply the Bik rates as required if the vehicles are allocated to an individual employee ie they take them home and have personal use. 130's have feeling's as well you know
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20th Sep 2020 11:08pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/e...l/eim23150 Contains this paragraph: "It follows from the above that it is not possible on first principles to come up with a single categorisation for all double cab pick-ups. Nor is it possible to give a blanket ruling on any particular makes, as the standard vehicle may have been adapted in the factory, by the dealer, or once acquired. So each case will depend on the facts and the exact specification during the period when the vehicle is made available for private use." But then goes on to say: "Interpretation of the legislation (originally an interim measure for 2002/03 onwards) From 2002/03, when deciding whether double cab pick-ups count as cars or vans, HMRC will interpret the legislation that defines car and van for tax purposes in line with the definitions used for VAT purposes. The position in respect of earlier tax years remains unchanged. Under this measure, a double cab pick-up that has a payload of 1 tonne (1,000kg) or more is accepted as a van for benefits purposes. Payload means gross vehicle weight (or design weight) less unoccupied kerb weight (care is needed when looking at manufacturers’ brochures as they sometimes define payload differently). There is a further kicker though: "Under a separate agreement between Customs and the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT), a hard top consisting of metal, fibre glass or similar material, with or without windows, is accorded a generic weight of 45kg. Therefore the addition of a hard top to a double cab pick-up with an ex-works payload of 1,010 kg will convert the vehicle into a car (net payload reduced to 965 kg). Under this agreement, the weight of all other optional accessories is disregarded. HMRC has also adopted this treatment." All of which is interesting but does not shed any light on the P11D status of the new Defender, especially in light of the recent Court of Appeal judgement sought and gained by HMRC. |
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21st Sep 2020 6:05am |
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| jav-uk Member Since: 29 Mar 2010 Location: Shropshire Posts: 112  
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Hi Supacat, I think the new 90/110 Hardtop will not be subject to these new regs. It is designed to carry goods and only has front row seating. I expect an N1 road tax class and if you are VAT registererd you will be able to reclaim full VAT on the purchase price or lease payment. For BIK it will be classed as a van.
However, if you modify a Hardtop and add second row seating you may be in trouble if HMRC find out...... I expect them to rule the vehicle has been changed to a passenger vehicle and therefore M1 road tax will apply and the BIK will change. FYI, you can reclaim the VAT on any vehicle depending on its use. If a car is used as a pool car, is kept at business premises and only covers business miles then the VAT can be reclaimed. It is considered a tool of the trade. (BIK does not apply in this example) NB. The above is for the UK, if any accountants follow this thread and I’ve made an error do comment. Paul Pondering a New 90 Commercial 2020 Evoque * 2014 110 SW JE Stage 2. *2010 110 Utility. JE Stage 2. *2007 110 SW *2003 90 JE Stage 2. *2000 90 SW If its not leaking it ain't full. |
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21st Sep 2020 8:18am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Have you read this? It's hard to argue that the structure of the passenger car has been altered as it appears the new test to be? The BVRLA (@bvrla) Tweeted: Court ruling confirms that Combi vans are to be treated as cars for P11D purposes @HMRCgovuk #vehicletax https://t.co/RCZoJOy4rv https://t.co/e2gD3JwKuf https://twitter.com/bvrla/status/1296519265332469763?s=20 Actual ruling: https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2020/889.html It's nigh on impossible to extract a few sentences to sum up, but "the application of the test as to whether a particular vehicle is a "goods vehicle" for the purposes of section 115(2)" and whether "the car was not "constructed or adapted for use . . . for the conveyance of goods" with the conclusion that "" . . . It seems to me that, by the conjunction of the words "constructed or adapted," the definition is really saying "originally constructed or where the structure is subsequently altered." "Immediately one says that, the question arises whether it can be said that the structure of the vehicle in the ordinary sense of the word has been altered, or whether the structure remains the same, but that some small fitting or attachment is made which, although it physically involves making small holes for screws in the structure, could not in any ordinary sense of the word be an alteration of the structure." |
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21st Sep 2020 12:10pm |
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| jav-uk Member Since: 29 Mar 2010 Location: Shropshire Posts: 112
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I did read the case and I interpretted the definition of a Combi van as a van with a second row of seating. The HMRC argued this changes its primary function to carrying people. As the new 90/110 Hardtop has only a front row of seats then it is a car derived van, similar to a Fiesta Van, Mini ClubVan etc...
IMO this case creates a grey area for owners of original Defender Utility 110's or DCPU's. I'm not a lawyer or a tax expert but if HMRC decide to retrospectively apply this ruling to all N1 RFL class vehicles with a second row of seats form the start date of this case, which I think was 2013, it is going to cause a lot of issues. Paul Pondering a New 90 Commercial 2020 Evoque * 2014 110 SW JE Stage 2. *2010 110 Utility. JE Stage 2. *2007 110 SW *2003 90 JE Stage 2. *2000 90 SW If its not leaking it ain't full. |
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21st Sep 2020 1:12pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17372
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The classification for a Car-derived Van is extremely well-defined in law and the new Defender cannot possibly under any circumstances fall into it.
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21st Sep 2020 6:12pm |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2150
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The examples in the HMRC case appeared to have been 'modified' to further improve the car side of things..........
Not sure they could use the same argument with an H/T or factory supplied commercial..... |
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21st Sep 2020 7:03pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Yes but the cases revolved around several other particulars that go more to the heart of the definition of a goods vehicle, reading the judgement and applying those tests to the new Defender would lead me to question the status of the vehicle in the context of the case made by HMRC.
Clearly, it's not a simple case otherwise, the 3 tiers of the court would have all been in agreement. Nevertheless, the final settlement is I believe final. |
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21st Sep 2020 8:15pm |
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| AndrewS Member Since: 10 Apr 2007 Location: Hereford Posts: 3707
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The new defender commercial is an N1 construction, a commercial vehicle. You can claim 100% of the vat back and it is classed as a commercial with reguard to bik. The bik figure you will pay tax on is £3,490.00 regardless of original vehicle cost. So if you are in the 20% tax bracket you pay £698.00 pa. 130's have feeling's as well you know
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21st Sep 2020 9:53pm |
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