Supacat wrote:

100inch wrote:

Honestly, do you really think people who buy LR products for years (28 years for new LR/RR's in my case) have this attitude?

Well I don't - but you are not the target audience for the new defender:

"The new Defender, whenever it is released, has to appeal to a whole new generation of people."
Gerry McGovern
https://www.cardesignnews.com/designers/de...09.article

And in terms of what Grenadier has said, I think it paraphrases very well what JLR have been saying openly for several years:

"Design is a key differentiator in the marketplace, while being a conduit to communicate what a brand stands for. That will always be the case, irrespective of what’s going on in terms of new technologies"
Gerry McGovern
https://www.cardesignnews.com/designers/de...09.article

And the killer quote:
"We live in a world now where image is everything.

Once things become comparable between one manufacturer and another, whether it’s technology, quality, precision, reliability, connectivity—whatever it is—once those things become comparable, what are you left with? You’re really left with the brand and its essence. It’s design that communicates what that essence is."
Gerry McGovern
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/land-rov...ng-1334564

It's sad to see a brand where the engineering excellence was the key differentiator, the thing that was front and centre of everything they did, now being seen as nothing special but only comparable.

The truth really is out there if you have the time and inclination - it's all hidden in plain sight!

100inch wrote:

That is why the New Defender looks like it does cause it is build for people who buy....m

I'm unsure, but is that a dig at those of us keeping our hands in our pockets?

I'm happy to pull further quotes but they don't make the potential new buyers for the new defender look good (and here I would draw a distinction to old, or existing JLR product owners) - it's about a short term happy feeling akin to a new saville row suit, yacht, handbag, pair of Jimmy Choos. In fact, if the words weren't in quotes from the man himself, you'd think it was a parody.

100inch wrote:

You would be really disappointed to see my 2018 RRS travelling the Outback then.... probably seen more off road than most Defenders on here.

So it is a contest now then?

100inch wrote:

Or when I drove an Evoque in Icleand. In winter.

Happy to - it was you who brought you up...

100inch wrote:

Honestly, do you really think people who buy LR products for years (28 years for new LR/RR's in my case) have this attitude?

So did you get past the Supermarket and out of town in Iceland or just as far as the road barriers?

Click image to enlarge

100inch wrote:

Click image to enlarge

100inch wrote:

Or when I drove an Evoque in Icleand. In winter.

100inch wrote:

Grenadier wrote:

100inch wrote:

Grenadier wrote:

Couldn’t agree more Supacat. The problem is that the target market for the recent series of models produced by LR is geared heavily (and I’d suggest primarily) towards looks/image, and this is being pushed hard by McGovern. As such there seems to be an apathy towards, or even a willingness to accept, bad workmanship and constant breakdowns/recalls, as the look and image the car portrays is too important to the owner and there is no real substitute. A fully loaded RR or RRS is still considered by many to be a more niche, exclusive and premium vehicle than one of the equivalents made by Merc, Audi, BMW etc. I think they are seen as ‘quality‘ brands, whilst LR is seen as ‘luxury’. In design terms, in iconic terms, in desirability terms, etc etc, I don’t think many people would put an Audi Q7 (however good the build quality and however reliable it may be) above an equivalently priced RRS. Much like an Audi A8 will never supersede a Lambo even though under the skin they’re the same and Lambo has a reputation for reliability equal to that of LR.

So, as can be seen by many of this forum’s members, people keep going back, year after year, to LR, despite its failings. And as there is no real alternative (and for some off-road ability and towing ability are also important) they will continue to do so and hope they’ve picked up a ‘Monday morning‘ produced vehicle and not one rushed through on a Friday arvo.

But no, the ego that is McGovern is obsessed with design above engineering and, mainly, doing it all themselves. Until he goes, this stupor will continue whilst other equivalent manufacturers improve their products year on year. I mean, even Aston Martin have seen the light and headed to Germany for their electrics and engines, and that’s saying something.

Honestly, do you really think people who buy LR products for years (28 years for new LR/RR's in my case) have this attitude? If JLR products wouldn't make financial sense and provide me plus family with safe and reliable travels, I wouldn't buy them full stop and have only one or two Series for the collection. That is why the New Defender looks like it does cause it is build for people who buy....m

No, not those who’ve bought them for years. My comment related to the new target market as exemplified by the current variety of models, their looks, spec etc. For most people ‘safety’ and financial sense’ would be Japanese or South Korean, if we’re really being extreme, or one of the German ‘big three’ if brand/luxury matter. There’s not a single LR model that is better built, more reliable, has a better engine, handles as well, cheaper, has lower running costs etc etc than an equivalent BMW or Audi. Not one. So, in Europe (maybe it’s different down under) financial and safety sense for a luxury SUV would never have LR as the number one choice. So why do people by them? I maintain that currently it’s cachet/image. I.e. If Joe Bloggs had £75k for a well specced SUV and was down to a choice between an Audi SQ7 and RRS, why would they go for the more expensive, less reliable, higher servicing cost, less frugal, less spacious (but arguably better handling) LR? It can only be one thing, brand/image because in no other way does it make sense.

As I said, this is current buyers. Target market. The man/woman who might not have even considered a 4x4 before the explosion of models 10-15 years ago. LR does not make any sense (IMHO) beyond image. Want Safety And financial sense, buy Kia. Want Luxury level, euro brand safety and financial sense, buy Audi/Merc/BMW/VW. Want luxury brand cachet, LR/RR trumps them all.....

Clearly this is very simplified and there will be old school LR fans who don’t care about the image, but do care about safety, towing, 4x4 heritage etc. But watching the people who use LR products across Europe (and clearly in the Alps it’s a prime demographic for JLR and the German big 4 to target) they are not you, or that other l9ng-term LR fan anymore. In the main. Not exclusively, but in the main. And, I bel8eve, in the lines of sight for McGovern and LR. The models, the looks, the gizmos etc say as much.

You would be really disappointed to see my 2018 RRS travelling the Outback then.... probably seen more off road than most Defenders on here. Or when I drove an Evoque in Icleand. In winter. I normally check out other peoples LR's here and this often tells the story how they use their car and how much 'old school' they are. Or at least think they are.

I wouldn’t be disappointed in the slightest, that is after all, what their heritage implies they should be used for. But, given I currently live in one of the most expensive parts of the world, (And previously in London), where wealth, status and image mean a huge amount to many, many visitors to the region, I can assure you that most recent converts to LR have no intention of getting anywhere near the outback, let alone in a 4x4, let alone in their OWN luxury 4x4. They’d risk ruining their suede ‘driving’ shoes. So well done you for doing so, but you are far, far from normal. Indeed, how many other owners of all the 2018 RRs sold in Oz have joined you off roading in the outback? How many people on this site, numbering thousands of members, have ever piped up and said, “actually I prefer to use my new, fully loaded Velar for green-laning than my 25 year old 90”? How many of the RRS sold during the history of the model have ever even been off road once? Not many in any of those camps.

So you are not normal and as a metaphor I’d suggest you are the equivalent of the advocate for smoking who says “well I had an uncle who smoked 60 unfiltered extra strong Turkish fags a day and lived to 120”. Nobody by any stretch would say that the uncle was a normal example of a heavy smoker? And Neither you for RRS ownership, which as I said, is commendable. But if you want to see your RRS in its real environment and driven by its standard driver, you might want to spend a day in the heart of London and not the heart of the outback. That is LRs audience.

Or to save you the airfare, type ‘RRS off road’ into google and look at the images. All staged by LR themselves or shots taken by journalists during testing, none a genuine owner off-roading. Then type ‘RRS spotted’ and the images are nearly all parked up in urban settings, mostly the wealthier parts of London and other world cities. You, 100inch, are an exception and not the rule. In a good way, but don’t believe, even as you sign on the dotted line for your 2020 Defender, that you’re LR/GM’s target buyer. The marketing team might pretend you are by making videos with guys who throw a canoe on the roof, a bike on the back and zoom out into the mountains.....but that’s not real life.  Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

Buz1500 wrote:

I’ve now had my P300 SE for 2 weeks and here’s a summary of my feelings / experiences so far.

No issues found apart from the water drip issue on the seats when opening the doors. Now treated the seats with the Gtechniq I1 fabric protection.

How much did you pay for a vehicle that drips water on its seats?


As an aside, why is it that the Freelander 2, allegedly the only car that JLR have made recently that doesn't have the usual host of historic Land Rover faults, has such a low social cachet?

Maybe the famous unreliabilty is actually an aspirational part of the Brand, enabling owners to lean on the Golf Club bar and amuse their friends by banging on endlessly about them?

Smilesapart wrote:

That - as a couple of you have pointed out might be the problem - keep buying the products, even when they are known to be faulty means they don’t get sorted. Well that may be the case, but I’ve watched what has happened to all the other British vehicle manufacturers I’ve loved when people have stopped buying them and I just cannot even begin to contemplate how devastated I would be if Jaguar Land Rover went the same way.