 | Home > Technical > Tdi vs Td5 brakes - what's the big difference? |
 
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1841  
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Hi all,
Not so long ago I fitted new rear calipers, and more recently a full (complete) set of braided hoses from Pioneer. I was a bit unhappy with how the brakes work still - see this thread if you like ( https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic71620.html ) I did 'wedge the pedal down' overnight, and things have been OK but not wonderful. Now as it happens a friend has left his Td5 at the back of the house for the last few days. Moving it about the drive today I wouldn't thank you for his clutch pedal (fierce!) but the brakes..... I'd like to have those. So, what's the big difference between Tdi and TD5 brakes? I know there's ABS on the modern car, but I wasn't going fast enough in the drive to activate ABS! I can see that there's a bigger servo, and a bigger spacer in between it and the pedal box, but the master cylinder looks pretty similar. Are there any significant differences in the calipers? Does the Td5 have a better vacuum pump arrangement? Is the bigger servo making all the difference? Bottom line, I'd like my brakes to have the same pedal and bite. I can't see that there's anything more I can do with my system now, so if there's something to be gained from other improvements I'd be up for that. Should say both cars are 110 s/w - mine's a 1994, his a 2005. Ta Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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26th Jul 2020 8:58pm |
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| Will@LRW Member Since: 04 May 2019 Location: UK Posts: 178 
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Nothing really, they're basically the same (other than the ABS, which is the modulator, extra pipes and the servo). The only other difference is the 2002+ 110 rear calipers take thicker brake pads. The Tdi braking system ran all the way til non-abs Pumas.
There's so many factors that can contribute to poor brakes. Vacuum pump pressure, collapsing vac hose, leaking vac hose to servo grommet, internally leaking master cylinder, ballooning flexi hoses, leaking solid hoses, leaking calipers, air in fluid, old fluid, maladjusted wheel bearings, sticking caliper pistons, no springs between the pads, poor quality pads, poorly bedded in discs, too much disc runout I've just about solved it after 10 years of trial and error. It was probably wheel bearing play, exacerbated by out of balance wheels/tyres. LR Workshop Find a Defender's history and spec: https://defender.lrworkshop.com |
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26th Jul 2020 9:16pm |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1841
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Thanks Will,
That's a pretty comprehensive list to be sure.... appreciate the effort. It seems to me the best thing I can do is to run through that.. Vacuum pump pressure - maybe - but there's certainly a vacuum. Pump was reseated and sealed onto the rebuilt engine - and the pump itself has been replaced in my memory - though that does stretch back some 20 years now collapsing vac hose - hadn't thought of this one. How would I know - or is it just 'replace and see'? leaking vac hose to servo grommet - don't think so. If I pull it off I can hear the vacuum escaping internally leaking master cylinder - quite possible. Again, it's not too old. ballooning flexi hoses - should certainly hope not! - given that they are brand new and 'premium' leaking solid hoses - no longer applicable! leaking caliper - nope - New ones on rear; front ones I did myself about two or three years ago. No signs of leakage. air in fluid - the $64k question....! I have bled, and bled and bled (eezi bleed and now the bigger Sealey pressure bleeder) old fluid - Nope! - there have been litres and litres going through this now. maladjusted wheel bearings - possible - but don't think so. Rears are new. sticking caliper pistons - unlikely - see above no springs between the pads - nope - definitely not. All been done poor quality pads - ? Ferodo I think...? poorly bedded in discs - as in not enough bedding in? How would they bed in 'poorly'? too much disc runout - ? Again possible. I have a gauge I could stick on them and see... Like I said, I've renewed so much of the system. I'm just a bit baffled why it feels so 'soft'. I really don't think it's anything mechanical but it's possible. So, there's nothing to stop me fitting the Td5 servo? I'm assuming I'd need those big spacers between the servo and the pedal box? Which makes me think there must be some difference in the master cylinder or the pushrod? Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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26th Jul 2020 9:43pm |
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| MaxRPM Member Since: 15 Jan 2013 Location: South Staffs Posts: 1114 
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I know how you feel! I've never been impressed with the brakes on my TD5 90. At the last MOT the tester said that they only just scraped through as they were so inefficient. Since then I have replaced the servo, all the calipers and put new discs all round and they are still poor. I can't lock the wheels under heavy braking.
I have a vacuum from the pump but all I can think is this is insufficient so I am looking at putting a new alternator/pump unit on in the near future. |
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27th Jul 2020 9:43am |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8026 
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^^^ or internal leaking master cylinder.
the other thing to consider is lengthening the stud inside the vaccum servo so there is less pedal movement before the MC piston starts to act. Its a fine balance though, too much and the brakes drag, too little and the pedal does nothing for 1" movement. All mine will lock brakes with good calipers, servo and pads/discs. nothing special bearmach calipers, mintex discs and pads. std servos. On my trayback (auto) i fitted a Disco1 300Tdi servo that came with ABS, its a larger servo volume which is ideal of repeated cadence braking especially with an auto and especially off road. Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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27th Jul 2020 2:05pm |
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| L110CDL Member Since: 31 Oct 2015 Location: Devon Posts: 10751
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I went through a phase with Millie that her brakes were not good and after putting new bits to do with the braking system on, i still found they were not any better, so i started looking at the brake pads and have been trying different set ups from different suppliers and have come to the conclusion they were all pretty much the same, not much improvement
Then by accident i came across what i have in Millie now, EBC green stuff pads but for 4x4,suv's etc ... which i put a pic of them in Millie's thread. I would recommend this as a first step, yes they have not been in long on Millie, but by far, they are the best i have ever had 
I can confirm what Sako mentioned that you should have all 4 tyre's skid, i have done this with these pads, it was a job to get the other pads to do this, so i will be sticking to these  1996 Golf Blue 300Tdi 110 Pick up.
Keeper. Clayton. |
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27th Jul 2020 9:57pm |
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| sako243 Member Since: 08 Jul 2014 Location: Wales Posts: 1218 
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You shouldn't have to waste time / money upgrading various bits and bobs unless you're pushing things over their limits like in a competition truck.
Just decent brands will do, I've never had a problem with sticking with what LR put there in the first place. AP Lockheed or Delhi parts (think I have the latter as brake pads currently). I've still got original brake lines on mine and original flexis (1994 Defender). I must admit I've never heard of Pioneer before in terms of brakes, if I do ever need replacements then probably go with Goodrich hoses since those are a brand I've heard of before. Note - mine gets worked pretty hard compared to most and when running properly I've not found the brakes lacking. E.g. Last week had a 20ft trailer with a tonne on the back most of the time, brakes on the trailer weren't particularly good and didn't have an issue. Ed 82 Hotspur Sandringham 6x6 95 Defender 110 300Tdi |
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28th Jul 2020 6:42am |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8026
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^^^ i concur with this, if its working as LR intended then you dont need to spend on 'upgrades' to get what LR originally fitted to work as it did when it was fitted.
All my LR defenders have locked up wheels under braking, including 37" on my trayback which aside from a larger servo was running standard everything else. edited to add - aside from brake lines which were llama4x4 hoses fitted more for convenience as they go straight from chassis to caliper rather than braided uprated performance Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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28th Jul 2020 7:59am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17374  
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My braking system is standard, I use Delphi calipers and LR pads (I've tried other makes including Delphi and they have always squealed, LR pads have never (yet) done this) and AP or Delphi discs. I have never had any concerns about the results, I don't recall ever having pressed the pedal hard enough to lock the wheels on-road even in the wet (and I always run on BFG KMs which are not famous for their wet tarmac grip) but that is mainly because I don't think that driving in a manner that makes this necessary/likely is responsible in a 2-tonne off-road vehicle.
I also personally find that most modern "normal" vehicles are ridiculously over-braked. |
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28th Jul 2020 8:18am |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1841
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Thanks all,
Just catching up with this as I've been away. The servo isn't so old - maybe 2 years or so - but of course that's not to say that it isn't still at fault. I went for a TRW one at the time. I have also recently adjusted the internal pushrod a smidge. The thing is I just can't imagine my brakes locking up at all unless under severe emergency braking, and even then I'm doubtful. I had reason to brake hard on a gravel/clay road surface this week and they didn't even lock up then. On this occasion it had a roof tent and awning fitted, and fairly minimal camping kit for two adults, so not even heavily loaded. Llama hoses vs Pioneer - can't really see that there will be much difference there. https://pioneer4x4.com To be honest I put these on simply for ease of installation, and longevity. This is not a competition truck in any sense, and I don't drive it as such, it's just that the brakes are so uninspiring. Bear in mind that what started me on this thread was the opportunity to drive a 15 y/o Td5 not an over-servo'd modern hatchback - and the brakes on that seem so so much better. I'm certainly prepared to try another servo and m/c. Disco 1 servo - is that STC1286? - and would I need the spacer and sealing washer NTC4099 and ANR3608? This is the one in my friend's Td5. Would that fit more easily or be better in any sense? It looks lke it's a Disco2 version too?  Click image to enlarge Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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1st Aug 2020 4:34pm |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1841
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bumpity bump.... kind of, but with an additional question.
I've checked the dates for the servo (a TRW one) and it's only been on the car since September 2018. So I'll check it for leaks in the usual places but I'm hoping for the best. However on my assumption that calipers and hoses are all good, I've decided to renew the M/C and the vacuum pump. I know they have been replaced in the past, but I've just no idea how long past without delving into the big scary box of receipts...... rough guess says somewhere in the range of 5 - 10 years ago. I'll also renew the vacuum hose. Now that's a scary price too... over £100 odd. I'm planning just to replace that with a silicone vacuum hose. Given all that's been said above about standard brakes being plenty good enough if in good nick, I'm hoping that this work should bring about a decent improvement. So two questions: 1) Can anyone say what the necessary internal diameter for the vacuum hose might be? Save me dismantling the current system before I have a replacement to hand? 2) If I'm just replacing the M/C, and manage to keep the three circuit hoses upright/not leaking, do I need to try and bleed any air bubbles all the way out to the calipers?? Could I just fill the new reservoir and leave the pedal pressed in overnight, allowing the air to bleed up itself? Appreciate any feedback, as always. Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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3rd Aug 2020 4:10pm |
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| roel Member Since: 08 Aug 2009 Location: Lelystad Posts: 2039  
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On a defensive driving course I did we had to set our seat how we would normally do it and then press the brake pedal as hard as we could. We should get 70 kg on the pedal to get the most out off the abs system. That is a lot. You won't get that if your seat is in the relaxed position. None of our group made it the first time before readjusting the seat. Most ladies didn't even make it after adjusting.
I have locked up my 90 a few times. On wet road on my Simexes it is quit easy. On my bfg's I really have to push it on dry tarmac. I have the standard not vented no abs brake system. I also think that the LR standard braking system is OK but you have to push it hard. Roel 1984 90 2.5 na Diesel - RR V8 (1994-2001) 1997 Camel Trophy Discovery 300TDI (2001-2009) 2005 G4 Discovery III 4.4 V8 (2008-2018) It's gone but it still hurts. 2003 90 Td5 (2009-now) |
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3rd Aug 2020 5:14pm |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1841
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Thanks Roel - that's an interesting one about the seat position, I'd never have thought of that. Also interesting to consider the tyres. I have bfg ATs on.
Mine has standard 1994 110 Tdi brakes, with the exception of the braided lines. So, solid discs on the back, vented on the front, standard calipers etc. I can only remember locking the brakes up once ever - twisty roads, very badly signed roadworks, and towing a boat. Like I said above, on gravel roads last week it wouldn't lock up. After 20 years it's hard to be sure, but I don't rmemeber them being so 'dull' before. I'm keen now to see what difference a pump, hose and m/c swap will make. Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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3rd Aug 2020 7:53pm |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2644 
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Something going on there definitely. Should be able to lock the rears very easily if unloaded, fronts too with a bit of speed and effort. Particularly on ATs.
Master cylinders are pretty reliable but I guess they do fail eventually. How much vacuum do you have? Have you tried pulling your vacuum pipe off and then trying to brake somewhere safe like a car park? Should be very difficult! That servo posted above is the ABS type I think? Not sure if it can be fitted to non-ABS systems or not. |
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3rd Aug 2020 8:15pm |
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