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blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17354

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

MikeJ wrote:
...
The rules changed in 2015. From the link I posted:
...

Indeed they did, and I have just had a load of fun reading Regulations (EC) 165/2004 (the one that made the changes) and (EC) 561/2006 (the original to which it refers) to try to establish the current situation.

As far as I can determine the most significant change is that if the vehicle is only used for purposes out of scope of the driver's hours regs then it doesn't require to have a tacho fitted. This is indeed welcome, since the ridiculous prospect of facing a fine for not having a device you're not required to use is lifted.

As far as usage is concerned, little has changed. Any vehicle with a gross permitted weight including a trailer in excess of 3.5 tonnes used for a commercial purpose is in scope and therefore requires a tacho unless specifically exempted. There are only two exemptions of particular interest to most of us, namely:-

vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used for carrying materials, equipment or machinery for the driver’s use in the course of his work, and which are used only within a 100 km radius from the base of the undertaking and on the condition that driving the vehicle does not constitute the driver’s main activity;

and

vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used for the non-commercial carriage of goods;

If you are using your Defender (or other Landrover) privately, the second exemption clearly applies, but note that are circumstances in which it would not apply (for example, taking a trailer load of scrap metal to the tip as a favour for a friend who'd accumulated the scrap in the course of running a business, delivering a caravan as a favour for a friend who sells caravans, etc). The classic case also testing this exemption came some years age when someone who'd towed a horse trailer to an event was charged on the basis that the prize they had one was "profit or reward" and therefore rendered the journey in scope, although I believe in the event the charge was dismissed.

The first exemption above is fairly self-explanatory, the stuff being carried must constitute tools and raw materials. So if you're towing a mowing machine or minidigger which you will then use you're exempt. If you are merely driving them to a location where someone else will use them, you are in scope and not exempt since the driving is then your main job. I suspect also that you'd get into difficulty if, for example, you claimed to be a fridge installer because you unpack and plug in fridges, when in reality you are actually a fridge deliverer.

The second exemption is also interesting since it would allow you to hire a 7.5 tonne lorry to move house (your own house), but if you hired a 20 tonne lorry for the same purpose you'd need to use the tacho. I hadn't realised that a limit of 7.5 tonnes applied to private use of LGVs.

25th Jun 2020 12:27pm

NinetyTD4

Member Since: 22 Apr 2011
Location: North
Posts: 397

The term

blackwolf wrote:
used for a commercial purpose

still confuses me.

Yes, there are certain situations I can understand that easily. But, say I have a car registered to my name and it is an asset in my private company, does that constitute as 'commercial purpose' already and how do you prove one or the other? I remember some times there was an exemption for 'leisure towing' applicable to i.e. horses transport, but that also caused a lot of trouble (example: what about an empty horse trailer).

Can somebody look at the registration of a New Defender, is it M1 or also N1 as the last Real Defender? Never forget: cars have owner, Landrover have field service personnel.

25th Jun 2020 1:42pm

MikeJ

Member Since: 04 May 2014
Location: Dorchester, Dorset
Posts: 41

2013 Defender 130 Puma 2.2 HCPU Fuji White

Quote:
does that constitute as 'commercial purpose' already

It's what you are using it for, not who it is owned by.
So the fact that it belongs to a company isn't relevant (to the dept of transport).
If you're using it privately, it's private use and you'll be fine.

If you're being paid to tow the horse trailer, then it's commercial.
If it's your private horse or you're doing it for a friend without reward, it's private.

25th Jun 2020 1:46pm

Tim in Scotland

Member Since: 23 May 2007
Location: The Land that time forgot
Posts: 3753

M1 on my V5C

Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come
2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed!

25th Jun 2020 2:28pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17354

NinetyTD4 wrote:
The term
blackwolf wrote:
used for a commercial purpose
still confuses me.

Yes, there are certain situations I can understand that easily. But, say I have a car registered to my name and it is an asset in my private company, does that constitute as 'commercial purpose' already and how do you prove one or the other? I remember some times there was an exemption for 'leisure towing' applicable to i.e. horses transport, but that also caused a lot of trouble (example: what about an empty horse trailer).

Can somebody look at the registration of a New Defender, is it M1 or also N1 as the last Real Defender?

it's actually not so much what you're using it for, more what the things you are carrying are being used for.

If you are carrying stuff that is bought and sold, manufactured, used up, delivered or anything else related to a commercial undertaking, be it your undertaking or someone else's undertaking, and whether or not you are personally deriving any payment, benefit or reward, then it is is in scope for driver's hours unless specifically exempted.

If you're carrying your own personal private property, then it is not in scope.

It doesn't matter who owns the vehicle and whether it is privately owned or a business asset.

It is a confusing area and one strewn with mines!

25th Jun 2020 2:35pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17354

MikeJ wrote:
...
If it's your private horse or you're doing it for a friend without reward, it's private.

Not quite. If your friend is using the horse in connection with a trade or business, then this would be in scope whether or not you personally are being paid or rewarded for moving it. If, for example, the horse had been hired to a film company, or was being used to promote your friend's riding school.

25th Jun 2020 2:38pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Wasn't there something about if you won a rosette or a prize that figured a few years ago?

25th Jun 2020 3:12pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Tim in Scotland wrote:
M1 on my V5C

Type approval issued by Sweden?

25th Jun 2020 3:30pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17354

Supacat wrote:
Wasn't there something about if you won a rosette or a prize that figured a few years ago?

Yes, as I mentioned above there was a test case because someone, presumably VOSA, argued that winning a rosette constituted being "rewarded" making it in scope. I believe that it was thrown out, and further that it was ruled that amateur prize money winnings were also allowed on the basis you never win enough to profit

So towing your own horse/racing car/speedboat etc to an event you might win is now ruled out of scope and allowable without a tacho.

Last edited by blackwolf on 25th Jun 2020 4:20pm. Edited 1 time in total

25th Jun 2020 4:01pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Sorry ~ l missed that bit 1st time around.

25th Jun 2020 4:06pm

WCDAVE

Member Since: 21 Jul 2020
Location: Chester
Posts: 8

See from 6:00 minutes on for rear seat access. Admittedly a prototype, but this is a fail:
&list=WL&index=8&t=1s

I think the problem is that the rear seat is right over the rear wheels and the suspension is taking up the space where the rear seat of the 110 is mounted. Hence the split level load space. Notice how much less headroom there is in the rear seat of the 90 than the 110. I don't know the height of this reviewer, but he looks cramped back there.

23rd Jul 2020 1:02pm

Tim in Scotland

Member Since: 23 May 2007
Location: The Land that time forgot
Posts: 3753

Oh dear, never let a Russian/Ukrainian reviewer who hasn’t read the owners manual film in your lovely new show car!
Complaining that the front seat doesn’t move forward (it does if you use the seat back button properly), complaining about the styling square blocking the view (it’s an extra cost option so you don’t have to have it) , complaining that the rear seat doesn’t fold flat (it does if you a) fold the head rests down using that big grey button on them and b) if you lift the seat base up first then fold the head rests and seat back down into the space left- at leas he didn’t noice the step in the booTfloor after you’ve folded he seats!) and then he complains about the crappy alpine light seals you can peel back with your fingers and the cheap tailgate finisher.......... that’s 90 sales in Russia doomed Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come
2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed!

23rd Jul 2020 1:32pm

apt100

Member Since: 05 Mar 2015
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 1547

2016 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Aintree Green

WCDAVE wrote:

>
>
... I don't know the height of this reviewer, but he looks cramped back there.

He gives the impression of being quite tall.
Whilst acknowledging he might not have made full use of any possible adjustments etc... I agree that the rear seats don't look they are going to be a fun place for him on a longer journey. Looks about as much fun as the rear foldaway seats in a Puma.

23rd Jul 2020 2:05pm

Ads90

Member Since: 16 Jun 2008
Location: Cots-on-the-Wolds
Posts: 809

2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 CSW Keswick Green

Especially if that plastic square nonsense is fitted, blocking the window.
Ok on a 90 commercial, but have that as an option on a 90 SW and it'll devalue the car by another couple of grand!

23rd Jul 2020 2:15pm

LoveTheMud

Member Since: 19 Feb 2015
Location: Weybridge Surrey & Pontefract West Yorkshire
Posts: 411

2014 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black

Basically, what they have here is an expensive freelander/discoverySport, that when you mess with the electrics to add additional items as we do with the existing one, it will confuse the other parts, and break. Its a hairdryer in a bath.

23rd Jul 2020 2:32pm

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