 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > 1st July.... |
 
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018   
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30th Jun 2020 12:36pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17361 
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That's the thing, it strikes me as an excellent idea. Almost instant refill, and as a vehicle owner presumably you don't have to worry about battery life.
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30th Jun 2020 2:02pm |
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| Orchard Member Since: 07 May 2015 Location: Usually walking the dog Posts: 258 |
Can't wait to see it tomorrows pictures
The copyright lawyers will be standing by 
If they have only just started the factory it's at least two years from production, and there has been no mention of network or dealer infrastructure yet. Both take time and deep pockets/loans. There has only been one non-Chinese new car company that has (so far) survived to decent sales in the last 30 years. It's going to be mighty hard to be profitable with one product and 30,000 per year.  2015 90 XS SW Bowler
1998 TD5 CSW |
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30th Jun 2020 2:57pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4206 
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Admittedly there was zero detail, but right back at the start there was mention of using agri machinery dealers for sales/servicing.
TBH, I'd be happy to order online as long as there are some good detailed independent reviews to make a judgement from, then get it serviced at my nearest John Deere place. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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30th Jun 2020 3:43pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753 
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 but carrying on about EVs From above posts
Charging speed isn’t an issue if you buy the right vehicle, the one with a huge, reliable supercharging network. On a Tesla Supercharger you can add 500 miles range in less than an hour - you can add 300 miles in the time it takes to go from the charger to the motorway cafe, use the toilets, queue for a coffee at the on site Starbucks or Cafe Nero and walk back to your car. Plan you charging around your travel breaks and it isn’t a problem I can assure you. The biggest issue with charging if you don’t own a Telsa is the flakey alternative network - The Electric Highway is terrible, Ecotricity is as bad at customer services as JLR and you need to have a huge selection of apps and RFID cards. Ionity does better, has extremely fast chargers but they are few and far between at the moment, but again there is no way you can charge at their charging points without their special app/ card. The U.K. Govt needs to integrate the charging network - pull up at any charger and if you have an account with another energy supplier so what, touch the card reader and make a payment regardless of whose card / app you have. Up here in Scotland we have a much better system - Chargepoint Scotland Runs a nationwide network of chargers, costs you £20 a year for the RFID card (no app needed) that also accepts cards from other suppliers and gives you free and unlimited charging for that £20. There is a good network mostly in public carparks and often if you ply into a charger then the parking is free. But even this system isn’t free of abuse - the bank of chargers nearest to Stirling Station is often taken up with cars whose owners have left their car on the charger all day even once it has fully charged while they work in some distance office. Telsa charges a fixed parking charge if you outstay you charge period on one of their chargers. There are some excellent EV and PHEV apps showing chargers, and not just their location but whether there is already a car plugged in and if the charger is out of order. Zapp Map is one widely used app. I recently drove the new Mini E, it’s brilliant and can’t half shift BUT BMW/Mini has way overstated its electric range - claimed is 144 miles from a 37kWh battery - real world driving in summer you are unlikely to see more than 110 miles range on the “fuel” gauge and in winter it would be more like 90 miles. Fine if you only do stop start driving in town but as soon as you want to attempt a trip of any length, forget it. As commented previously it’s this once or twice a year long trips where the smaller EV’s fail, cars like the Kia’s, Hyundai’s and Tesla’s though are getting more and more range - Tesla recently did a software upgrade to the Tesla S that increases the range to a real world 400 miles and a rapid charge time of 45 minutes. Another thing is most EV’s are not suited to long journeys where they cannot use the regenerative braking to its best, regen contributes a lot of range if you are driving on lots of urban driving. My Mini PHEV cost me £0.90p for 21 miles range, I could charge for free at the shops and drive home again on a full battery - ok from empty to fully charged took 3 hours but I also had a brilliant 3 cylinder turbo petrol to fall back on if I ran out of charge. 85-90% of the 8000 miles I did in 2 years ownership was purely electric motoring, I saved a fortune from not having to refill its 35litre tank too often - 11 times in two years! Pure electric driving does require a small change in journey planning, but you soon get used to plugging in a charging while you are watching TV in the evening and most folks with EV’s do not have to recharge from empty to full every night, often it’s as little as adding 15-20% range and that happens while you are sleeping. So why have I changed my eco Mini for a big consuming, particulate emitting New Defender and not an EV? Simple - I want to reduce to running one car - I also ran a Defender90 alongside the Mini and still have it alongside the new Defender - but there isn’t a suitable EV 4x4 on the market yet and I was originally going to wait for the L663 PHEV but have been told that it’s unlikely to come to the market before 2024, won’t be as capable offroad as the purely ICE Dfenders because so far none of the LR PHEVs has great OffRoad capability - there are all AWD vehicles with no transfer case or low ranges. Also JLR’s pricing of the present range of PHEVs makes them hugely expensive purchases. I did take a Jaguar I-Pace off-roading and it was fantastic but no low box and the model suitable for offroad use costs getting on for £80,o0p once you add the Air suspension and special all surface grip control options, but electric off-roading is great with all the instant torque that is very easily controlled. Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come 2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! Last edited by Tim in Scotland on 30th Jun 2020 4:15pm. Edited 2 times in total |
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30th Jun 2020 3:51pm |
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| Race.it Member Since: 27 Aug 2019 Location: Algeciras Posts: 815  
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If you only filled the mini 11 times did the petrol go off? I thought I heard the new e85 petrol goes off quickly now so these ev’s with Petrol engines could have hard time starting in the future with the new fuel and long time between fill ups Searching for my first Defender...and started just as Covid hit, so talk about timing.
5 months after starting the search I found it, and here is the details |
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30th Jun 2020 3:58pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753
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Was not an issue for me although during lock down I did get concerned that the lack of petrol consumption might be an issue but it wasn’t. Prior to retirement I worked at sea for 3-4 months at a time and the car sat unused outside on my drive, plugged into the 13 amp socket in my garage but totally controllable using the app over a satellite link broadband connection - meant that on winter nights at home I could set the car to warm the battery and interior from the middle of the ocean. I was more concerned that the 12v battery for the in car services might flatten but got round that by connecting up a small solar panel trickle charger even during lockdown, never had an issue with that either.
Some EV owners leave their cars for months on end at their 2nd homes overseas without issue too. You do have to condition the battery prior to such a long period of no use though,usually leaving it charged between 40 and 80% does the biz in that case and doesn’t require the car to be left on a charger. It’s often the 12v battery in EV’s that gives trouble if the car is stored for a long time, not all EV’s are capable of charging the 12v battery while parked up. Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come 2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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30th Jun 2020 4:05pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Hope they are better than the last ones JLR used and lost on all counts.
The article quoted earlier in this thread suggests late next year for customer deliveries.
There has ~ you appear to have just missed it; but why assume it's along the same business model as JLR? From a customer point of view, many are seen more as a necessary point of friction rather than adding anything to the brand experience.
Who are you thinking about and what is decent sales? I'm guessing INEOS’s business model is not to chase JLR's volumes and corresponding level of profit it is currently enjoying. They just might know what they are doing there.  |
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30th Jun 2020 4:52pm |
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| CDN38 Member Since: 14 Nov 2014 Location: Courtenay, BC Posts: 729  
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I really hope they bring this to North America, if it doesn't go to the US, I doubt it would come to Canada, as we are a small market compared to the US.
I have loved to concept of this vehicle from the beginning, the development and focus has been very well thought out. Keep it simple with tried and true technology and mechanical engineering. No need to re-invent the wheel. The photo is the perfect teaser. it's a Landrover thing... my renovation thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic40792.html |
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30th Jun 2020 5:06pm |
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| RDR Member Since: 27 Apr 2018 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 592
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we've had a little BEV car for running around and me commuting into the office for 5 years. There are specific use cases they don't suit everyone but it also requires a mindset change on range and how you "fill it up". We treat it like a mobile phone and plug it in at night or whenever there is an opportunity some people cant do this and it wont work for them. 5 years on and i honestly never bother looking or worrying about range. Very specific and im lucky to have a 32 amp charger on the drive so it all works fine. The Eco argument is something that does wind me up with some BEV owners, clearly building them and then where you get the electric creates pollution they are not pollution free. The thing that i like is the fact it keeps the pollution in one place (the source) where hopefully it can be better addressed. Improvements in energy production are immediacy available to all BEVs regardless of age you don't have to wait for new tech to filter through the ownership chain like with ICE cars. We had an Ipace on order but cancelled when Jaguar cocked up the deal, just about to pull the trigger again as the current I3 is due a change in Sept. 110 MY23.5 X Dynamic HSE RR MY23 HSE PHEV D5 MY19 HSE - Now Sold D4 MY16 HSE Luxury - Now Sold D4 MY12 HSE - Gone D3 MY06 S - Gone but not forgotten |
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30th Jun 2020 6:15pm |
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| Pacha Member Since: 23 Feb 2020 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 772 
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Thanks Tim, some stuff I was not aware of, but I remain a sceptic. I checked earlier and there are 6 Tesla Super Charger points in my locality - most are in 'pay to park' locations. I still see queue picture posted on the internet of EV vehicles waiting to charge and I remain unconvinced that we are anywhere near being able to support more use of EV's currently. The whole carbon footprint thing is 'smoke and mirrors' with EV's - until it gets sensible and the infrastructure is more widespread etc. then I am off the list. Appreciate your detailed reply to my off the cuff dismissal  Rgds.
Chris |
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30th Jun 2020 8:27pm |
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| Orchard Member Since: 07 May 2015 Location: Usually walking the dog Posts: 258 |
Oh my goodness, it’s a shocker IMHO. A contrived design trying so hard to not looking like a Defender, but does, sort of. Plus a shopping trip to ‘accessories r us’. Reminds me strongly of the various Santanas. 2015 90 XS SW Bowler
1998 TD5 CSW |
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1st Jul 2020 8:42am |
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| Orchard Member Since: 07 May 2015 Location: Usually walking the dog Posts: 258 |
JLR won in China against the Evoque copy, but they failed to trademark various iterations of Defender design last year. They haven't even started putting the building up. To deliver in 18 months to customers means they'll need to be in pre-production around a year from now. Delivers will be late 22 earliest. What is their brand development / go to market model? INEOS say they will break even at 25,000 per year, Tesla is the only one above that, and they received hundreds of millions of dollars in grants from the US Govt. and they did have really unique proposition, brand story and go to market approach. The car industry is massively capital intensive at any scale and enjoys really thin margins, it's a really long term game. 2015 90 XS SW Bowler 1998 TD5 CSW |
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1st Jul 2020 10:31am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Go on be honest and answer this question : "Do you have skin in the game?" Why muddy water with Evoque, your original comment was clearly aimed at this model and JLR lost the copyright for the images/sillouette. Clear and simple. What are they so afraid of that they leave the market for utility vehicles but want to try and ensure no other company can pick up and run with it? With regard to thin margins ~ define what this is in % terms. JLR's current forecasts are for future margins to be far from thin. |
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1st Jul 2020 12:31pm |
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