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blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17474

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

blackrangie wrote:
...
ill put it another way, there is no way landrover would not have doubled their factories size for the old defender if they got 100k in orders, why didn't they double the size of the factory or run double shifts etc? because they didn't get the orders.

I don't agree with this, I am afraid. If apocryphal tales are to be believed, the cost of building the Defender was so great that the margins were at best minimal, at worst negative. I think it is likely that the new commercial JLR had no interest whatsoever in increasing Defender production if the investment required to do so could be used to increase, say, Evoque production where the margins were much greater. A far better ROI would be achieved.

I really think that JLR would have been quite happy if the Defender had just quietly atrophied and died, except for the value that the name and the heritage brings to the company. We have recently seen JLR exploit this to the absolute limit in recent years, for example with the footage of traditional Land-Rovers mixing it with the new Defender. The vehicles are chalk and cheese, as are the target markets, projected sales, etc, - there really is very little similarity - except for the fact that JLR is relying for sales on customers making the associatin between the classic Land-Rover brand and reputation and the new super-duper SUV thing

it is actually excellent marketing and business strategy, all a part of what we call "expectation management", and makes total sense. Even though I lament the loss of the Defender and its replacement with another bland and generic SUV, I am encouraged that JLR management seems to be doing a good job, something I had rather lost confidence in during the recent McGovern era.

28th Aug 2019 11:22am

LandRoverAnorak

Member Since: 17 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 11324

blackrangie wrote:
yeah i here ya, but what facts are you basing that on, I believe on one of the best years sales were up to 50k, later years were down to 20k approx.

ill put it another way, there is no way landrover would not have doubled their factories size for the old defender if they got 100k in orders, why didn't they double the size of the factory or run double shifts etc? because they didn't get the orders.

That's not true. There were two reason they never significantly increased Defender production: firstly, they didn't have the space - Solihull is a notoriously congested site - and secondly, because it was more profitable to build Discoverys and Range Rovers. Unit for unit, Defender was just too labour intensive to build. Darren

110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak

"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia

28th Aug 2019 11:26am

blackrangie

Member Since: 07 Jul 2019
Location: sydney
Posts: 181

Some good comments in there, regarding the tales i'm a fact guy, The defender and the series it succeeded have always been the backbone of LR giving LR its brand credibility, the defender sold for decent money im sure they made money on each and every one sold, not just in sales but parts for 5,10,70 years after.
Each one driving around is also a marketing tool which is valuable. If the sales books kept ramping up so would have production, until it hit a ceiling. It did, at 50k then dropped, it was then canned and replaced as the existing platform etc was not suitable, viable or sustainable for rodays market and especially not for 5-10 years from now.

They have built us a modern take on the defender which is said to be more durable and capable (very defender) and still more to be revealed, im guessing they are going to have more than a few tricks up their sleeves past the 3 front seats and ragtop options. Apparently a media release within 24hrs if the timeline previously posted is to be believed, hopefully some more photos or details, but they will keep full reveal until the 10th.

28th Aug 2019 11:43am

lohr500

Member Since: 14 Sep 2014
Location: Skipton
Posts: 1319

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black

I'd love to know what JLR's warranty and recall bills were as a % of the profit made on all 2.4/2.2 Puma sales.

During my 5 year ownership, I had recalls for the front axle failure issue, the oil pump problem, 4 days of work to sort out water ingress and a lot of remedial work done under the corrosion warranty.

If the profit margin was slim on the original sales, then the warranty claims must have had a big impact on overall model profitability.

28th Aug 2019 11:56am

blackrangie

Member Since: 07 Jul 2019
Location: sydney
Posts: 181

LandRoverAnorak wrote:
blackrangie wrote:
yeah i here ya, but what facts are you basing that on, I believe on one of the best years sales were up to 50k, later years were down to 20k approx.

ill put it another way, there is no way landrover would not have doubled their factories size for the old defender if they got 100k in orders, why didn't they double the size of the factory or run double shifts etc? because they didn't get the orders.

That's not true. There were two reason they never significantly increased Defender production: firstly, they didn't have the space - Solihull is a notoriously congested site - and secondly, because it was more profitable to build Discoverys and Range Rovers. Unit for unit, Defender was just too labour intensive to build.

Yep i have heard that rumour many times over the years, however again facts here, Land Rover are on record saying even at 20,000 units it was still profitable

https://www.caradvice.com.au/251444/land-r...s-silence/

Quote:

Land Rover says Defender sales have continued to tick along at approximately 20,000 units per year for the past five years, and Dietsch says even at that level it remains profitable for the company, admitting it would be “silly” to build the car at a loss.

100% agree other vehicles they made were ore profitable, if they were able to keep selling it in the EU after 2020 they prob would have kept it going as is, they couldn't so it had to be changed for emissions, safety and financial sustainability.

they will now be able to sell in all of their markets, which will send sales well above historic levels imo, interesting times

28th Aug 2019 12:10pm

blackrangie

Member Since: 07 Jul 2019
Location: sydney
Posts: 181

lohr500 wrote:
I'd love to know what JLR's warranty and recall bills were as a % of the profit made on all 2.4/2.2 Puma sales.

During my 5 year ownership, I had recalls for the front axle failure issue, the oil pump problem, 4 days of work to sort out water ingress and a lot of remedial work done under the corrosion warranty.

If the profit margin was slim on the original sales, then the warranty claims must have had a big impact on overall model profitability.

good point, i wonder if manufacturers have insurance against recalls or they have recourse against their suppliers etc.

28th Aug 2019 12:12pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17474

blackrangie wrote:
...
They have built us a modern take on the defender which is said to be more durable ...

Said by whom, pray?

Do you honestly think that in 70 years time someone will find a "new Defender" in a barn and drive it out?

28th Aug 2019 12:13pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17474

blackrangie wrote:
...

Yep i have heard that rumour many times over the years, however again facts here, Land Rover are on record saying even at 20,000 units it was still profitable

...

It is, I think, reasonable to conclude that the Defender was profitable. If it wasn't, production would have been stopped. However it is on record that it was less profitable than any other Landrover model.

In the modern world it makes no sense to keep a small volume, marginally profitable vehicle in production when far better ROI can be achieved by making other vehicles unless the small volume vehicle brings some other benefit to the company.

The Defender story underpinned the credibility of the company, and therefore it could not be allowed to disappear until several years of "heart and minds" work was done to transfer the credibility of the old onto the new, something that JLR has been working very hard to achieve recently.

28th Aug 2019 12:20pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17474

lohr500 wrote:
I'd love to know what JLR's warranty and recall bills were as a % of the profit made on all 2.4/2.2 Puma sales.

During my 5 year ownership, I had recalls for the front axle failure issue, the oil pump problem, 4 days of work to sort out water ingress and a lot of remedial work done under the corrosion warranty.

If the profit margin was slim on the original sales, then the warranty claims must have had a big impact on overall model profitability.

This would indeed be interesting, however I imagine that it would be less than you think due in no small part to JLR's pretty shocking attitude to recalls.

I think it would also be interesting to know how the shift in market emphasis changed the level of customer complaints. I wouldn't mind betting that in the old days the traditional buyer of a Land-Rover would tend not to complain about the same defects that the SUV-type buyer, used to normal car quality, would moan massively about. The number of threads on this forum from people with leaks, rattles, windows that self-open, heaters that don't work, etc etc tends to bear this out. I never heard of someone buying a Series One from new complaining about leaks.

28th Aug 2019 12:24pm

spudfan

Member Since: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Co Donegal
Posts: 4722

Removable/inter changeable seat bases? 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali
2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu
2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai

28th Aug 2019 12:25pm

Grenadier

Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5858

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey

The irony BW is that is has done a fat lot of good for JLR’s coffers. I think the problem is that JLR falls between a rock and a hard place. There are more than enough examples the world over of small volume, niche, hand-built vehicle suppliers making a tidy sum. Just look at Ariel, Konniiiisassseaasssegg, Morgan or McLaren. But JLR isn’t a niche producer. Had Defender been built on its own, perhaps they could have made it work.

Then look at the flip-side, the BMW/Audi/Merc model where they can produce small-unit luxury or niche models (TT, BMW i8, G Wagen), plus their standard luxury models (S Class, RS, M-sport etc) but have the economies of scale by selling gazillions of small-to-medium sized diesels to support them. Nor are JLR, despite making some of the world’s most expensive models, quite ‘prestige’ enough to work super small unit numbers like Bentley, Ferrari, Aston Martin etc.

There is no other manufacturer I can think of where they are neither ‘large-global with prestige range’ like BMW, nor strictly niche or completely prestige like Ferrari or Ariel. Instead they fall in the middle. They produce too many cars, or too few cars, depending on which way you look at it, and at the wrong price-points. Rock and a hard place.

Had they sold Defender and had that been produced in the right numbers, even hand built as a super-niche model, it could have turned a profit. Let’s be honest, for what it is it was never exactly cheap...

Just my opinion... Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

28th Aug 2019 12:32pm

blackrangie

Member Since: 07 Jul 2019
Location: sydney
Posts: 181

blackwolf wrote:
blackrangie wrote:
...
They have built us a modern take on the defender which is said to be more durable ...

Said by whom, pray?

Do you honestly think that in 70 years time someone will find a "new Defender" in a barn and drive it out?

Andy Deeks and in 70years i hope we are back on horses

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/first-loo...defender#1

Quote:
Have you been comparing it to the old Defender? “No. This surpasses that in every way. The old Defender is tough, because it’s uncomfortable to drive quick. Whereas this thing is very comfortable to drive quickly. And as a result it’s been designed to be super durable and robust.”

https://www.whatcar.com/news/2020-land-rov...ted/n17899

Quote:
The suspension has been reinforced, however, and the new Defender has bigger wheel arches, more suspension travel and more ground clearance than any other Land Rover to date, with the aim of making it the brand’s most capable car off road, as well as much more civilised than its predecessor on it.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/...ender-4x4/

Quote:
Deeks explains that they’re still working on the wading depth, but it’ll be better than any other Land Rover on sale today, and therefore exceed the Discovery’s 900mm. That's pretty deep.

Deeks describes the new Defender test schedule as halfway between a full-size SUV programme and those used for military vehicles, making a sterner test than for any Range Rover and even the Discovery. They're keen to make sure it's tough as nails.

https://expeditionportal.com/the-best-defender-tease-video-yet/

Last edited by blackrangie on 28th Aug 2019 12:39pm. Edited 1 time in total

28th Aug 2019 12:33pm

blackrangie

Member Since: 07 Jul 2019
Location: sydney
Posts: 181

Grenadier wrote:

Had they sold Defender and had that been produced in the right numbers, even hand built as a super-niche model, it could have turned a profit. Let’s be honest, for what it is it was never exactly cheap...

Just my opinion...

As above LR are on record saying it was profitable even at 20,000.

28th Aug 2019 12:36pm

Grenadier

Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5858

blackrangie wrote:
in 70years i hope we are back on horses

I hate horses. But I’ll be dead in 70 years

Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

28th Aug 2019 12:41pm

22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3150

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Keswick Green

According to my factory tour guide in late 2015, each Defender cost about £12k to make, we know they sold for £20-30k approx.

The other models cost about £15k+ to make but sell for £60k and up...so yes every Defender made a profit but not as high a return as the rest (all robot built).

High point of production was 1969 to 71 where they were hitting 50,000 a year, which they never did again. 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

Last edited by 22900013A on 28th Aug 2019 3:16pm. Edited 1 time in total

28th Aug 2019 12:47pm

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