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| AndrewS Member Since: 10 Apr 2007 Location: Hereford Posts: 3708   
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Last week I sent an email to DVSA asking for clarification and guidance for a similar issue. Not licence this is Taco fitment and drivers hours.
We tow a trailer with hydraulic lifting equipment, trailer and kit is around 3T. The lifting equipment is to enable the driver to carry out his works whilst on site. We work on existing (not new) water systems. The kit is used to remove and replace water storage tanks. At the moment I tow the trailer with my D5. (yes I suspect it requires a Taco) Our vans are 3.5T LWB twin rear wheel Renault Masters. It would be easier if the vans can tow the trailers saving my time with the D5. The vans can tow 3.5T The exclusions we may fall under are. 1 Vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum permissible mass not exceeding 7.5 tonnes that are used for carrying materials, equipment or machinery for the driver’s use in the course of their work and which are used only within a 100 km radius from the base of the undertaking and on the condition that driving the vehicle does not constitute the driver’s main activity. 2 Vehicles used in connection with sewerage, flood protection, water, gas and electricity maintenance services. However both state within a 100 km radius from the base of the undertaking. Not sure what this actually means? We are based in Hereford and lets say our job this week was in Glasgow IMO Glasgow is the place of undertaking. Looking at drivers hours, Lets say we have a taco in the van and we are towing the trailer. Three men leave in the van travel to Glasgow from Hereford. The first driver pops his card in and off they go. After a certain length of time he has to stop for a rest, at this point the lads would have a brew and swap drivers then continue, however the first driver is still on his rest break and the vehicle cant move as you cant rest in a moving vehicle. Eventually they get to site off load the trailer and carry out their normal works however they are now on drivers rules so have to log all hour worked, repeat journey home. Clear as mud. 130's have feeling's as well you know  |
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16th Feb 2018 2:06pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17457 
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It is indeed a complete nightmare!
One thing that is I believe well established is that the "undertaking" in this context is the operating base of the company, in your case Hereford, not the site at which work is taking place. You would need permanent premises in e.g. Glasgow for the 100km rule to apply. |
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16th Feb 2018 2:12pm |
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| AndrewS Member Since: 10 Apr 2007 Location: Hereford Posts: 3708
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 and therein lies our issue the 100 km radius aint very far  130's have feeling's as well you know |
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16th Feb 2018 2:55pm |
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| alwoodley72 Member Since: 14 Mar 2010 Location: salisbury, wilts Posts: 724  
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Hey Chedgy90, what will be the nature of the business, as as stated above there are a number of exceptions/ exemptions to the rule, it is NOT a blanket restriction regarding the tacho. We work within a 100k radius, and my understanding/ phone calls with VOSA is that occasional trips outside of that with a reasonable notation of hours/ breaks ( fuel stop receipts are good) that all is good, you won’t get them putting it in writing though...
As usual it’s about being reasonable- taking reasonable steps to know the law(s) and where there are grey areas taking reasonable steps to stay safe.. Good luck with the venture, here’s to the self employed!!… Cheers alex 98 300 tdi 90 project 94 Range Rover vogue 4.2 lse 79 911 sc 08 130 double cab utility |
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16th Feb 2018 8:06pm |
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| 22900013A Member Since: 23 Dec 2010 Location: Oxfordshire Posts: 3150 
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With respect to O licences, one is NOT required when the towing vehicle is a four wheel drive. HOWEVER you would need to check with regards to the weight, I as I think that only applies when the vehicle gross weight is less than 3050KG.
Tacho cost - mine was about £1400 to have fitted and calibrated, sadly they don't come cheap. To be fair it is no real hardship to run according to drivers regs, and easier/safer than to chance it and end up paying a massive fine. I don't use mine now as I only ever tow my own kit. 2011 110 USW 1973 Series III 1-Ton 1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker 1969 IIA 1-Ton 1966 IIA 88" |
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26th Apr 2018 2:22pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17457
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^^^ I think you'll find that the vehicle has to be a Dual Purpose Vehicle, not simply a 4WD.
Note that the definition of a DPV in the C&U Regs actually stipulates all-wheel-drive, not four-wheel-drive, so a 6x4 Landrover is unlikely to be a DPV unless it meets one or more of the other definitions, also that the to be a DPV the unladen weight of the vehicle must not exceed 2040kgs. A Disco 3 commercial, for example, is not a DPV due to its absurd unladen weight and could not be exempt from the tacho or other regs by virtue of being a DPV. |
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26th Apr 2018 2:39pm |
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| 22900013A Member Since: 23 Dec 2010 Location: Oxfordshire Posts: 3150
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Quite correct. I'm not sure a 4x4 Transit would count for example. But our works ones tow without O-license. Even 2WD ones!
I think the wording is something like "all wheel drive or capable of having all wheels drive" so a series Land Rover would count for example. I know when I spoke to VOSA (as it was then) they took every "proper Land Rover" as being a DPV and so exempt from O licensing. 2011 110 USW 1973 Series III 1-Ton 1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker 1969 IIA 1-Ton 1966 IIA 88" |
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26th Apr 2018 7:37pm |
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| miker Member Since: 13 Sep 2015 Location: Surrey Posts: 1764 
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It's not helped by seemingly no-one at vosa knowing a straight answer, and often reverting back to "no case law so this is our best judgement". Police often don't know much either, as it's such a niche area. Even traffic police!
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26th Apr 2018 10:56pm |
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| Maxxed_Ross Member Since: 06 Jun 2012 Location: Bathgate / North Sea Posts: 340  
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I had this very same issue when I started to tow my track car around behind my 90.
Having passed my test in 2005 I went looking through various government pages trying to find out what I was actually allowed to pull. One page would say I was legal as the total train weight was within limits of the towing vehicle -but then another page on sometimes the same website would totally contradict the information on the other page 
Throw in the question about braked and un-braked trailers and it really got interesting. The short version of that is that after '97 if you tow ANY trailer with brakes you need a B+E As far as I know the law has changed again for newer drivers, so it all depends on when you actually passed the test. The back of your photo licence will have pictures of everything you can drive. If you're lucky enough to have passed before 1997 there will be quite a few! In the end I did the B+E to cover all the bases. Was around £600 for a 5 day intensive training course at a local specialist and included the test costs, use of their vehicles and fuel.... so not too bad As for the tacho and reward scheme, almost all race car transporters carry a "not for hire or reward" sticker on the drivers door. I've guessing this is some sort of legal loop hole |
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27th Apr 2018 1:00am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17457
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Recent advice from VOSA which probably covers most private racing:
"If it’s the case that your expenditure is more than you could ever hope to gain in prize-money or sponsorship, and you don’t consider your activity to be a business, then you don’t need an operator’s licence." From https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syst...owners.pdf Note however that this is regarding Operator Licensing and not Tachographs/Drivers Hours. |
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27th Apr 2018 7:52am |
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| Trebro Member Since: 28 Jan 2016 Location: Hampshire Posts: 241 
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We run tacho's in our defenders.
If the vehicle is pre 2006 you can use an analogue Tacho, if post 2006 you must use a digi Tacho. For a digi Tacho you will need to apply for a digi Tacho card. You'll also need software to rear the digi Tacho card and to store the data fir I think two years. It may sound like a minefield but it's not , it's really quite simple. You need to learn about driving hours when your train weight exceeds 3500 kg. you don't need an operators license Supply and installation (you can't fit it yourself or get your local garage to fit) of a digi Tacho will be around £1200 plus vat. You'll then need it calabrated every two years at about £50 a pop If your delivering materials only rather than carrying materials you will also need a CPC qualification, which equates to 5 days "training" refreshed every 5 years As others have stated their are exceptions on distance and what you carry but generally you'll need one if towing fir commercial purposes. |
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6th May 2018 5:54am |
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| discomog Member Since: 09 May 2015 Location: Notts/Lincs Border Posts: 2530 
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There will be thousands of horse trailers on their way to competitions today (myself included). I wonder how many of us will be breaking the law when we drive home with our rosettes? Mr Plod could make a killing if he only knew  Defender 90XS SW
Mini Countryman Cooper S Morgan Plus 8 |
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6th May 2018 7:28am |
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| Cetane Member Since: 27 Nov 2012 Location: Lancashire Posts: 171 
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Incorrect. It's a quirk of tachos. Just need to swap cards in the tacho. POA (Default for slot 2) counts as break for dual driver purposes. Eg. Drivers 1&2 put cards in slots 1&2 respectively. This must be done at the start of the journey together. Get to place where drivers swap and card 1 is moved into slot 2 and vice versa. Whilst stationary both can record break. When moving the default POA returns for slot 2 whilst slot 1 shows driving and other work automatically swapping about. Note... If the person loaded in tacho slot 2 is doing ANY work such as navigating or taking company calls etc etc, then it must be set to other work. It can be toggled back again when they are free to relax. HTH Cetane |
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5th Jun 2018 6:22pm |
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