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AndrewS

Member Since: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Hereford
Posts: 3707

2013 Defender 130 Puma 2.2 SW Rimini Red

Differential Issues

My defender has now covered 5k and in that time period she has had 3 rear diffs and is currently in the dealers having her second front, the front 'failed' with such a force that it has punched a hole in the actual axle.

As you can imagine I am not very happy about the issues I am having. This has got me thinking as to why this is happening. I have looked into the power and torque outputs of previous defender models and also the type of differentials fitted to the various models. There are 2 basic types of diff fitted as standard, a 2 pin and a 4 pin, the 4 pin being the stronger.

Defender 90 110
Year Engine Maximum Power Maximum Torque Diff
91-93 2.5 200 Tdi 111bhp @4000rpm 195lbft @1800 rpm 2 pin
93-98 2.5 300 Tdi 111bhp @4000rpm 195lbft @1800 rpm 2 pin
99-07 2.5 TD5 122bhp @4200rpm 221lbft @1950 rpm 90 = 2 pin
some
110 = 4 pin
or Salisbury
83-90 3.5 V8 114bhp @4000rpm 185lbft @2500 rpm 4 pin
07- Puma 120bhp @3500rpm 265lbft @2000 rpm 2 pin

*Note* All the V8s were fitted with 4 pin as standard.

Now when you look at the basic chart above you will see that the new Puma engine has the highest torque output yet the diff is a 2 pin

so in my opinion the diff is not up to the job. But alas it does not stop there lets throw some TC (Traction Control) into the equation. As far as I am aware the TC on a defender does not talk to the engine. In other words when the TC kicks in, it does not cut power. So when you are in an off road situation and you have a bit of wheel spin with 265lb ft of torque going through your 2 pin diff and the TC applies the brakes to the spinning wheel, 265lb ft of torque instantly tries to go somewhere else. This 'somewhere' will be the path of least resistance. If the wheel that is not spinning has loads of grip then the path of least resistance will be the weakest point of the drive train, this being the 2 pin diff.

I am hoping that LR will recognise this issue and offer to fit the 4 pin diffs. If they wont then I will have to go for aftermarket stronger diffs and pay for them myself. This will no doubt invalidate my warranty so I'm sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place to coin a phrase. My other option would be to disable the TC unfortunately this also disables the ABS again causing 'issues'.

IMO for what its worth. Land Rover have turned the Defender into a ponsy Chelsea Tractor that is now incapable of performing as a work horse in the environment it was originally designed for.

BTW I have not actually seen the diffs close up to confirm that they are defiantly 2 pin in the new Defender. I am going on the failure rate and info passed to me from people in the know.

I should have more info later today when I return from my dealer.

~~Edit Sorry the Chart is not the best. The correct spacings disappeared when the post was submitted.~~

30th Oct 2007 9:35am

Bogblaster

Member Since: 04 Jun 2007
Location: Glawstershire
Posts: 119

2016 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 Adventure Corris Grey

I have a friend who works in the R and D Dept at LR, when I picked up my Defender 90 in May he told me in strictest confidence

that LR were in the process of changing suppliers of the axles (assumably this will include the diff) and the new ones would start being installed on ones around now. Apparently this was done for reasons of cost, they now use the same supplier that makes the D3 axles. The upshot of this is that a byproduct of the new axles will be that they are much stronger than the original 07 Defenders. We spoke about this last time we talked Andy, so I suggest you stamp your feet at the dealers and see if yours has been replaced with the early axle innards?

I am also led to believe that a number of people have succesfully got their entire truck repalced due to numerous problems. When this site becomes as well used as Disco3.co.uk we can expect more info. Hopefully that will be sooner rather than later 2019 MY Disco 5 HSE Lux
Audi A4 Avant 3.0L TDI Quattro - WOW
2016 90 Adventure

30th Oct 2007 10:56am

Martin
Site Admin

Member Since: 02 Apr 2007
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 6605

2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red

Fixed the table for you chap.

30th Oct 2007 10:17pm

solmanic

Member Since: 16 Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 191

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey

Bogblaster wrote:
When this site becomes as well used as Disco3.co.uk we can expect more info. Hopefully that will be sooner rather than later

Well there are a number of us over here watching with interest to see if any of these problems are headed our way. My new Defender is ordered but I don't as yet know what the build date is/was. 2007 Defender 110
1970 Alfa Romeo 1750GTV

31st Oct 2007 12:16am

AndrewS

Member Since: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Hereford
Posts: 3707

Confirmed today that my 110 Utility with heavy duty suspension has light duty 2 pin diffs. When I ordered the vehicle I was not given a choice between 2 or 4 pin diffs. Clearly the 2 pin is not strong enough for a loaded 110 thats used off road as a work vehicle. I am waiting for LR to advise me as to what they intend to do to fix the problem.

I also have a new 110 XS CSW waiting to be collected. I have asked the question 'So what diffs are in the new one then

guess what

they don't know

I will take delivery of the new vehicle on the understanding that 4 pin diffs will be fitted if its found that 2 pins have been installed originally.

31st Oct 2007 10:08pm

AndrewS

Member Since: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Hereford
Posts: 3707

Martin wrote:
Fixed the table for you chap.

How

31st Oct 2007 10:09pm

NoDo$h

Member Since: 18 Aug 2007
Location: Buried in deer guts in Dorset
Posts: 972

Makes me glad we didn't go for TC and ABS when we got our 90. LR have come good on the EPB on the D3 for me (replacing everything and recalibrating using a new electronic calibration) although there's still no public acceptance of an inherent weakness, so fingers crossed they accept your request on similar "case by case, sir" terms.

It will be nice, but I suspect a little chilly for satan's liking, when LR openly admit a design weakness and make wholesale changes / recalls on the D3 EPB and the Defender diffs, but we live in hope.

54 Freelander modded for mud
2008 D3 SE
2010 90 XS SW
1978 88 Series 3 undergoing surgery with a new owner
2007 90 County Truck Cab - gone
2006 D3 SE - gone
2004 Freelander Sport - gay
1999 Disco V8 ES rotted to bits

31st Oct 2007 10:27pm

AndrewS

Member Since: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Hereford
Posts: 3707

Up date

The vehicle requires a new diff and axle casing. The diff has arrived, however the casing is on back order with no sign of one turning up in the near future. There is a complete front axle available and I am waiting to see if LR will allow the new complete axle to be released and fitted to my car.

1st Nov 2007 3:58pm

AndrewS

Member Since: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Hereford
Posts: 3707

Up Date

LR have agreed to change the front complete front axle. Thats got a 2 pin diff in it

2nd Nov 2007 1:31pm

dshickle

Member Since: 09 Oct 2007
Location: Epsom
Posts: 36

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Galway Green

HI Andrew,

I'm just in the process of picking up a may'07 90XS CSW.

Which I intend to use for off-road fun as well as general driving, and some trailer activity

If I read you post correctly your saying that the diff's are not up to the task, but is that because you are doing major off-road with load as a work horse. Or is there a risk to general driving as I intend.

I'm not sure I fully understand the implications here, but it doesn't sound good.

David

4th Nov 2007 9:04am

AndrewS

Member Since: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Hereford
Posts: 3707

dshickle wrote:
HI Andrew,

I'm just in the process of picking up a may'07 90XS CSW.

Which I intend to use for off-road fun as well as general driving, and some trailer activity

If I read you post correctly your saying that the diff's are not up to the task, but is that because you are doing major off-road with load as a work horse. Or is there a risk to general driving as I intend.

I'm not sure I fully understand the implications here, but it doesn't sound good.

David

You should be OK with a 90 Chap the vehicle is a lot lighter.

4th Nov 2007 2:26pm

TJ101

Member Since: 30 May 2007
Location: Taunton Somerset
Posts: 3750

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red

Thanks for taking the time to post Andrew,

mmm,, does not look good,

so far, mine have not been a problem,,, but then not do a lot off road as yet, but 80% on road towing !! California F1, 75th 110 "Kermit", 50th Ann V8, 90 V8 Hybrid, 55 Series 1

Main Brian James Trailer Dealer for South West UK

7th Nov 2007 3:01pm

AndrewS

Member Since: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Hereford
Posts: 3707

Got it back today. She had a new front axle fitted. They also found that the rear prop/park brake drum bolts were loose. Add to this, the fact that the turbo/exhaust manifold bolts were also loose makes me think that LR could have build quality issues.

12th Nov 2007 2:13pm

CFB

Member Since: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posts: 803

Fills me with confidence for collecting my 110 next week

Andy

12th Nov 2007 2:50pm

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 8024

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey

not only the highest torque from the engine but also the lowest gearing of a stock LR - 1st some 33% (IIRC) lower than the td5 gearing.

ask LR if they had many diffs go on the launch of the model............. Cheers

James
110 2012 XS Utility
130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper
90 2010 Hardtop
90 M57 1988 Hardtop

14th Jan 2008 3:13pm

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