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Miggit

Member Since: 09 Mar 2017
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 72

^ I don't want to state the obvious.. but the OP did say that the defender was an ex MoD one and had no reversing lights fitted.. so there's a chance that they missed the wiring too

Anyway this is the switch for the early RRC LT77 box, and it says all LT77 to 1990

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RANGE-ROVER-CLAS...5b34d1d392

It then goes on to say in the description that the early ones are 28mm and the later are 14mm... so in my books that leaves 14mm of thread on the outside... that's enough to get 2 full nuts on, let alone 1

RRC 2.4 TD... it's either a stretched 90 or shrunken 110!!
ML 270CDI

15th Mar 2017 10:23pm

Barneyboy

Member Since: 19 Nov 2014
Location: Exmoor
Posts: 1626

1986 Defender 90 2.5 n/a Diesel ST Nato Green

Hi by the looks of it miggit you're correct I only had a quick look but couldn't see a wire but I will have a better look on Saturday if not then I will sort out a feed for the switch and light,I'm pleased the switch is so accessible it will be good to have a reverse light as over winter I was flicking on my fog lights not ideal I know but it lit up areas well enough for me to see,I was even contemplating getting 2 side light lenses (military) and replacing the fog light lenses with them but boy they're expensive thank you all for you're comments and advice

Paul Tash n Barney

16th Mar 2017 5:39am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17443

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

You could fit a manual switch on the dash provided that it incorporates a warning light.

16th Mar 2017 7:24am

Barneyboy

Member Since: 19 Nov 2014
Location: Exmoor
Posts: 1626

hi yes that would of been the plan if it couldnt of been retro fitted, ive done that with 3 of my old series land rovers with no issues come mot time

cheers Paul Tash n Barney

16th Mar 2017 1:25pm

zsd-puma

Member Since: 09 Aug 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 2720

2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Santorini Black

Quote:
no issues come mot time

there wont be any issues at the MOT as the reverse light isn't part of the MOT test at all - you don't even have to have one and if you do it doesn't even have to work for the MOT.

However cars built after about 1979 (i've not checked the year) are supposed to have a reverse light fitted by law, so you would be breaking the law by not having one fitted or not working - but you'd still pass an MOT, as it's not in the test. It's like spare tyres, they're not checked in the test at all either, they can be bald, punctured and perished and the car still passes the MOT.

Quote:
You could fit a manual switch on the dash provided that it incorporates a warning light.

You could, but as the gearbox has the point for the switch to screw into, it's no more work to fit an automatic switch.

16th Mar 2017 8:06pm

zsd-puma

Member Since: 09 Aug 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 2720

LandRoverAnorak wrote:
zsd-puma wrote:
LandRoverAnorak wrote:
That Mini one isn't the correct switch but the lock nut is useful if you want to use PRC2911 shown above.

I'd expect it still fits, although you'd have to cut off the bullets and put spade connectors on it.

It might do, but why faff around when the correct one is available and cheaper?

It was just a suggestion on the basis that various cars from the old BL stable would be a source of a reverse switch, who knows what folk have knocking about in the back of the garage.

16th Mar 2017 8:10pm

Barneyboy

Member Since: 19 Nov 2014
Location: Exmoor
Posts: 1626

Hi that's interesting re the law as my ex military 90 does not at the moment have a reverse light which is why I started this thread,I'm assuming it hasn't ever had one fitted,it would be good to know either way

cheers Paul Tash n Barney

17th Mar 2017 6:50am

Miggit

Member Since: 09 Mar 2017
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 72

Well it goes like this... How many of you can produce an MoT failure certificate with reversing lights not working?

Answer........ no one, they are not a legal requirement, which is funny cos since 2012 they are a requirement on all new trailers that are made... could be interesting..

There is a Law about showing white light when going in a forward direction... which is why a simple manual option isn't always the best option... I prefer the automatic route and let the gearbox determine when the lights should be on or off! RRC 2.4 TD... it's either a stretched 90 or shrunken 110!!
ML 270CDI

17th Mar 2017 8:51am

zsd-puma

Member Since: 09 Aug 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 2720

Because it's not in the MOT test. I mean how many people can produce an MOT failure sheet for running red diesel? Just because they can't it doesn't make running red diesel on the road legal.

You'll find all cars built after about 1979 have them fitted, because they wouldn't have passed type approval without them. Whether you'd actually get pulled over for it is another question.

Trailers don't have MOT's at all (below a certain weight), the reason new ones need reversing lights it for type approval purposes.

Military vehicles had exemptions for a number of things, presumably a reverse light is one of them.

17th Mar 2017 9:49am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17443

zsd-puma wrote:

Blackwolf wrote:
You could fit a manual switch on the dash provided that it incorporates a warning light.

You could, but as the gearbox has the point for the switch to screw into, it's no more work to fit an automatic switch.

Not all gearboxes are drilled and tapped for the switch.

If you use a manual switch the law requires a tell-tale either in the switch or on the dash to indicate to the driver that the reversing light is on,

17th Mar 2017 10:09am

Miggit

Member Since: 09 Mar 2017
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 72

zsd-puma wrote:
Because it's not in the MOT test. I mean how many people can produce an MOT failure sheet for running red diesel? Just because they can't it doesn't make running red diesel on the road legal.

You'll find all cars built after about 1979 have them fitted, because they wouldn't have passed type approval without them. Whether you'd actually get pulled over for it is another question.

Trailers don't have MOT's at all (below a certain weight), the reason new ones need reversing lights it for type approval purposes.

Military vehicles had exemptions for a number of things, presumably a reverse light is one of them.

Right having trawled through some of the road traffic act, and lost the will to read, I have discovered that reversing lights are classed in the UK as "Optional lighting" so there is NO legal requirement to have them fitted. Type Approval is a bloody EU thing, so while they might be a legal requirement in the EU, they are optional in the UK. However the UK law does state that if fitted they either need to be operated by the gearbox when reverse is selected, or, fitted with an indicator (tell tail) if operated manually. RRC 2.4 TD... it's either a stretched 90 or shrunken 110!!
ML 270CDI

17th Mar 2017 10:19am

zsd-puma

Member Since: 09 Aug 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 2720

Quote:
Type Approval is a bloody EU thing, so while they might be a legal requirement in the EU, they are optional in the UK

The UK is in the EU - for now.

It comes under UNECE (actually a United nations convention on vehicle construction, originating from the EU.)

You can read it here in a well presented Hella published document;
https://www.hella.com/hella-com/assets/med...LLA_EN.pdf

ECE-R48;

Reversing lamp
ECE-R48 section 6.4 and ECE-R23
Presence
ECE-R48 § 6.4.1
Mandatory for all passenger car classes.
Number
ECE-R48 § 6.4.2
1 device mandatory and a second one mandatory on M1 vehicles and all
other vehicles with a length of <6> 6 m, except M1 vehicles.
Color
ECE-R48 § 5.15
White
Position in width
ECE-R48 § 6.4.4.1
No regulations
Position in height
ECE-R48 § 6.4.4.2
Min. 250 mm, max. 1,200 mm.
Visibility
ECE-R48 § 6.4.5
1 lamp: horizontal ± 45°. 2 lamps: horizontal 30° inwards to 45°
outwards. Vertical 15° upwards, to 5° downwards.
Electrical connections
ECE-R48 § 6.4.7
Only lights up when the reverse gear is engaged and the vehicle is in
running order. The special conditions in section 6.4.7.2 apply to the
optional reversing lamps.
Tell-tale
ECE-R48 § 6.4.8
Optional
* Installation of the two optional reversing lamps also allowed on the vehicle side.

Last edited by zsd-puma on 17th Mar 2017 7:24pm. Edited 1 time in total

17th Mar 2017 7:09pm

zsd-puma

Member Since: 09 Aug 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 2720

blackwolf wrote:
zsd-puma wrote:

Blackwolf wrote:
You could fit a manual switch on the dash provided that it incorporates a warning light.

You could, but as the gearbox has the point for the switch to screw into, it's no more work to fit an automatic switch.

Not all gearboxes are drilled and tapped for the switch.

If you use a manual switch the law requires a tell-tale either in the switch or on the dash to indicate to the driver that the reversing light is on,

True, although the OP has pointed out his does have a bolt screwed in where the switch goes.

17th Mar 2017 7:10pm

Miggit

Member Since: 09 Mar 2017
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 72

zsd-puma wrote:
Because it's not in the MOT test. I mean how many people can produce an MOT failure sheet for running red diesel? Just because they can't it doesn't make running red diesel on the road legal.

You'll find all cars built after about 1979 have them fitted, because they wouldn't have passed type approval without them. Whether you'd actually get pulled over for it is another question.

Trailers don't have MOT's at all (below a certain weight), the reason new ones need reversing lights it for type approval purposes.

Military vehicles had exemptions for a number of things, presumably a reverse light is one of them.

Sorry, I wanted to walk away from this but it's really bugging me....

The MoT is a test of "Roadworthiness"... it is to ensure that a vehicle complies with the current laws of the road, there is no requirement for a UK built vehicle to be fitted with reversing lights.. if there was a requirement, i.e. legislation, it would be part of the MoT test.

The requirement for a reversing lamp is EU.. therefore if a manufacturer wanted to produce a vehicle and sell it within the EU it must have reversing lights... As the Defender 110 is produced for the MoD in the UK by a UK manufacturer for use in the UK, it does not need reversing lights... furthermore it also does not need reversing lights to travel in any other EU Member State as there is an exemption clause for military vehicles.

Driving on Red Diesel is not a Roadworthiness issue, it is covered by HMRC and is classed as a Criminal offence, "failing to pay road fuel duty" and can result in the seizure of the vehicle, fines, and imprisonment.... it will however not result in penalty points on your driving licence as it is not an offence under the "Road Traffic Act".

The long and short of it is, if they are fitted they must only work when reverse gear is selected... any forward motion of a vehicle with illuminated reversing lamp is illegal. However going backwards with fitted reversing lamps not on, is not an offence, and using a vehicle without reversing lamps is also not an offence too. RRC 2.4 TD... it's either a stretched 90 or shrunken 110!!
ML 270CDI

18th Mar 2017 3:42pm

zsd-puma

Member Since: 09 Aug 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 2720

I'll say again the UK is in the EU..... (whether you like it or not) building and selling a car in the uk is building and selling a car in the EU.

The mot hasn't got anything to do with the legality of it,
Take aftermarket HID headlamp bulb conversions, they're illegal for road use. However they will pass an mot if the beam pattern is correct, that doesn't make them legal.

There are exemptions for military vehicles, however when that vehicle leaves military service it's no longer a military vehicle.

UNECE rules are posted above.

18th Mar 2017 5:27pm

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