 | Home > Technical > 2.4 Puma with intermittent starting problem HELP |
 
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| Dtm Member Since: 11 Feb 2017 Location: Essex Posts: 11   
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Hi can anyone help me, I have an intermittent starting problem on my defender that is driving me crazy, and costing me a fortune!
I have a Defender 90, MY08 with puma 2.4 engine in, basic farmer spec (no security immobilizer/no key fob/no central locking) She fails to start just like in this video : (borrowed from 4wd-junky see quote bellow) Diagnosis so far: New starter motor, New battery, New starter relay New main relay Error codes when fault occurs : U0100-87 - Lost communication with engine control module/powertrain control module "A" P068A - ECM Power Relay Load Circuit: De-Energized Performance Too Early Testing: When the fault occurs the starter relay cuts out, this is due to the signal circuit not being grounded via the ECM (when she is working the ECM grounds pin c0872-l2 completing the circuit allowing it to work) So this makes me suspect the immobilizer (10as unit), the IPAC or the ECM? Can anyone help on further diagnosis/ what I should change first? Thanks in advance 4wd-junkey post regarding a very similar fault:
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14th Feb 2017 3:43pm |
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| Gurmot Member Since: 01 Apr 2016 Location: Somerset Posts: 36 
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I was also thinking high resistance connection or bad earth.
I have not tried this but here is a voltage data logger you could attach to things like the ecu to see what's going on (or off). http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Maplin-USB-DC-Vo...Sw44BYK95q |
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14th Feb 2017 10:17pm |
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| Lukey Boy Member Since: 10 Jun 2011 Location: Norwich Posts: 122 
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I.ve just had a very similar problem with mine. When I turned my ignition switch to the cranking postion to start I would get a very very breif crank but I noticed all my lights on the dash went out sometimes. In the end I changed the ignition switch on the end of the ignition barrel. Just be aware I had to buy a new clamp around the steering colum. I had to drill through the old clamp as I couldnt get to the security bolts with a dot punch! Hope this may help 2008 110 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
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14th Feb 2017 10:28pm |
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| Dtm Member Since: 11 Feb 2017 Location: Essex Posts: 11
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Thanks for the reply's, much appreciated.
Re : custom90steve, your thinking along the same lines I did, just did not check the IPAC connection but have done that now. I can confirm that the IPAC plug seems all dry, secure and corrosion free The Battery terminals have been cleaned and checked (there was no signs of corrosion anyway) The relays under the drivers seat (start relay and main relay) have been changed and seem to operate properly when the correct signal/grounded circuit is applied Re : Gurmot, Also had thought about bad earths, have looked at all the earth points (battery to transmission, under drivers seat to transmission, two on the bulkhead in the engine bay) and they all seem clean and tight, I haven't checked there resistance back to the battery which might show something? . . . Data logger would be a good idea, have only got a multi meter atm, was thinking of an oscilloscope to speed things up like : http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/velleman-2ch-wif...s210-n71dp I will have to do some research on that .. Re :Lukey Boy, Thats interesting, I had originally suspected the ignition switch but since testing the starter relay it seems to put out the voltage fairly reliably when it was meant to. But I probably wouldn't notice a voltage dip/gap using my multimeter, so perhaps a datalogger/osciliscope would help diagonose that. Or i can just bypass the starter switch and hot wire it. . . . Good suggestions and now have some more things to try/think about but more help will be appreciated! The annoying thing is that today she will not fail once! so quite difficult to test!! |
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15th Feb 2017 3:45pm |
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| Lukey Boy Member Since: 10 Jun 2011 Location: Norwich Posts: 122
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Good luck Dtm. These things are very frustating especially when yours is so intermitent.
 2008 110 XS CSW Stornoway Grey |
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15th Feb 2017 10:01pm |
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| Dtm Member Since: 11 Feb 2017 Location: Essex Posts: 11
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Went and got a voltage logger/oscilloscope to test the fault on wednesday, ever since she has been starting first time every time! Grr
Am planning to test ignition switch and then move on to re-checking earth's with a jump lead from battery to engine/chase etc ... But need it to fail and fail consistently to test it. This is going to take a while... |
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17th Feb 2017 10:02am |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295 
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Hello Dtm
I feel your pain...I have suffered (may still be suffering) almost exactly the same issue currently http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic51335.html I'll post later, (no time right now) but after weeks pursuing my problem I think I have got to the issue, for me it is 'probably' (I have learn to be very carful of convincing myself that I have found the answer) it looks to be either one connector on the back of the Ignition Switch or (potentially) the Ignition Switch itself, 'breaking down' internally. I'll explain more later...but this just may steer you in the right direction...(certainly worth checking anyway) as it felt like I was progressively replacing my Defender to sort this... 
Keep the 'Faith'...  SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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17th Feb 2017 10:19am |
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| NickMc Member Since: 01 Oct 2014 Location: Norn Iron Posts: 1628  
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Changed a few ignitions on the TDCi, mate in the dealers fleet workshop has too when they get up in the mileage or run all day, good old Chinese and Indian parts
 Last edited by NickMc on 20th Feb 2017 9:04am. Edited 1 time in total |
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20th Feb 2017 12:35am |
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| Dtm Member Since: 11 Feb 2017 Location: Essex Posts: 11
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Thanks Skip, You may be onto something there, as I did test the ignition switch (when it was working properly) once I got the oscilloscope on Wednesday so have moved the contacts about while getting the probes on, since then there has been zero faults . . . But then it has been much warmer over the weekend and the problem dose seem worse when it gets colder/is left in a cold location. Will keep a close eye on her, but I dont dare stop her away from home atm! Cheers |
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20th Feb 2017 6:45am |
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| Dtm Member Since: 11 Feb 2017 Location: Essex Posts: 11
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Defender update: I thought I might have changed something by having all the connections on/off as has been starting fine until yesterday when I stopped it in the Wickes car park. . . I came back to it 10 min later and she failed
 Luckily I had the wiring diagrams and test meter with me so I could make use of the problem, eventually it started about an hour later after swearing at it, leaving it for 5 min and then coming back!!
I did test the ignition switch and the power supplied to the three contacts produce identical traces compared to when I tested it the other day when it was working so it seems to be working fine. So that shouldn't be the problem. I did find that you dont actually have to crank the engine for it to isolate/immobilise the start relay and engine sometimes when you just turn the key to 'on' (position 1) the necessary grounding of pin c0872-l2 on the start relay is lost a moment later meaning she will not even try turning the starter motor. You can then turn the key off and then turn it on straight to crank and you get half a second/second of starter motor cranking b4 the system cuts the earth connection and kills everything!!! So . . . any suggestions? what dose the computer/ECM check for and need signals from to allow the starting and not immobilise it? I was thinking of testing the signal between the 10as immobiliser and the IPAC to see if she is immobilising herself for some reason? Dose anyone know what signal should be going to and from the 10as unit, as far as I can tell there is only an output from the IPAC to the 10as and then an input returning from the 10as to the IPAC which I assume is the confirmation that all the security features are good and allows it to start?? Thanks everyone this is going to take a while. . . |
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21st Feb 2017 6:38am |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Hello Dtm
Again I know how you feel...intermittent is worst than a dead fail. The only up side is that you can test where there's power when she's OK and compare this to where there is nothing when she fails. I removed inspected and reconnected all wires at the rear of my ignition switch and this gave me approximately 20 starts before she failed again. I then checked (when failed) what was going on and I had a permanent live at the Ignition Switch Brown White, which is switched to the White Red wire under cranking...although in my case it wasn't I removed the White Red wire (the one with the Red Plastic cover) and gently keyed (cleaned) the surface of the terminal, projecting from the rear of the Ignition Switch with 1000 grade wet and dry. This was stuck to a needle file with double sided tape in order to get into this tight location. I also very gently, with watch makers screw drivers closed the crimp connector within the Red Plastic cover so that it was tighter onto this terminal. I also applied 1 drop of WD40 prior to reconnecting this terminal...This took me from a Not Starting Puma to a Starting Puma, I made absolutely sure (as far as I could determine) that I didn't touch anything else, no other terminals no relays, nothing... as I wanted to be as sure as I could I was changing one thing only. I have now had 30 starts and she appears fine...only a prolonged period of consistent starting will help to take away that persistent feeling currently that she could fail at any point. I have also noticed that when mine did fail there was a slight click from the Starter Rely under the Drivers seat, but when power is successfully switched from the Brown White to the White Red at the ignition switch...and this White Red wire goes to the Starter Relay there is a more distinctive click with a slightly different end to the click...just more positive...if I hear this (and i'm tuned into this now) I know she is going to start 
Lastly I took off the other terminals yesterday and cleaned and tightened the connectors in the same manner but for me I think I'm there even though I originally checked this and convinced myself that the connection was good...it appears it wasn't if it fails again and my DMM shows me that the Ignition Switch isn't switching...then I will replace the Ignition Switch (not straight forward but can be a DIY job) Click image to enlarge Top View Click image to enlarge Underside View Click image to enlarge Close Up Click image to enlarge Cleaning Terminal Good Luck... SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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21st Feb 2017 3:35pm |
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| Dtm Member Since: 11 Feb 2017 Location: Essex Posts: 11
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Thanks for that skip, have now re-checked all the contacts on the ignition switch, and all seem fine, and had the fault on Friday and took the opportunity to re-test the ignition switch and im 99% sure it is working fine. I know what you mean about being a bit fiddly in there, i had enough trouble just checking all the connectors let alone servicing them!
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5th Mar 2017 6:37pm |
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| Dtm Member Since: 11 Feb 2017 Location: Essex Posts: 11
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Was begging to think it might have been a loose wire having checked everything last week and not had a problem. . . till Friday when it was a damp morning and the fault returned!
Sooo, I re-checked the ignition switch - seems ok, re-checked the starter relay under the seat - works when the ground is provided on the c0872-l2 pin by the ECM but when the fault is present this grounding is cut. Checked the main relay which seems to be working fine. Then moved onto looking at the 10as unit, looks all ok, unplugged the green and grey plugs, tried starting her - exactly the same fault, plugged it back in and she started . . ., un-plugged and she gave the same fault, plugged back and still faulted, unplugged- faulted, plugged back in worked fine . . . So by this time I needed to use her so kept her running till i had some more time. So when i came back to testing she worked fine with everything plugged in, but when I un-plugged the 10as unit it gave the exact same symptoms as my fault! And when I plugged it back in again she started fine! So I think my problem is something to do with the system immobilising the vehicle for some reason. . . I suspected that the 10as unit may be faulty so I had a chat with Paul at technozen-electronics and he knows a thing or two about these units and said that in all his time he has never had an intermittent fault with the 10as unit, its either working or not working! All it needs is a good constant power supply, a power supply during ignition and a ground and that should allow it to generate the signal required to allow the computer to start the engine. . . So next time I have the fault im testing that the 10as unit is getting a good 12v supply. . . I know the 10as unit communicates through the instrument cluster, dose anyone know how to test that? or a way of by-passing it? I feel that I have made good progress now as i can re-create the fault at any time by unplugging the 10as unit which immobilises the vehicle but still feel no closer to finding the fault!! If anyone has any suggestions they are gratefully received. Cheers |
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5th Mar 2017 6:58pm |
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| dorsetsmith Member Since: 30 Oct 2011 Location: South West Posts: 4554 |
it is only in and out link to instrument cluster on 2.4 puma defender pin 3 /4 make shore you good earth between 10AS and ford ecm
Active low immobiliser output 2007 defender 2.4 10AS -----pin 14 gray plug------to ins-cluster (c1040r-pin 3 - immobile in) ---- and immobile out from ins-cluster c1040r-pin 4 to the ECU plug C0872-G4 also pay you check that you have no fault code on the ford ECM or 10AS |
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5th Mar 2017 8:35pm |
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