 | Home > Maintenance & Modifications > Intermittent Puma Starting Problem |
 
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295   
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OK D2NCan I have your help please
Vehicle 2.4 tdci Puma Dec 2010 (MY2011) 30K Mileage Mechanically Standard Symptoms Turn Ignition Key, Click from Relay/s under Drivers Seat... Nothing Fails to Start, Fails to Turn Over, No Engagement of Starter Motor Leave over night, then often / sometimes OK No hesitation, Starter Motor Engages Starts Promptly Drive / Start Multiple Times OK then... Click Nothing... 
Work So Far New Battery OEM Land Rover 90AH Varta Battery 2 weeks old LR038341 Defender ran after fitting this New Starter Motor OEM Land Rover (Bosch) Unit 1 week old LR025840 Defender ran after fitting this New Starter Rely YWB500060 Defender ran after fitting this Main Earth from Battery to Chassis Removed Cleaned and Reinstated Main Earth to Gearbox Removed Cleaned and Reinstated X-Eng Ignition Lock Removed and original arrangement (induction loop) reinstated to Original Position (those who have fitted this will know, but I wanted to know it was not this...and it 'appears' not to be) I currently have a dead PumaIt may well start again in the morning but it may not... What do you know or think is worth trying with these symptoms Im feeling like this one has me beaten currently In some way if it stayed broke it might be easier to identify the problem because clearly up to now I have been chasing the problem but not getting to the heart of it Over to you D2N... what the  is going on
Thanks... SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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24th Dec 2016 5:08pm |
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| Alien Member Since: 18 Jan 2015 Location: Bacchus Marsh Posts: 230 
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The way I'm reading it the ignition switch side of things is ok as the relay is working.
What needs to be identified next is if power is at the starter soliniod when the relay is engaged. This will identify if it's a wiring issue or in the starter motor soliniod. If identified as a wiring issue the next 2 things I'd look at... -loose terminal on the harnes side of the starter conection. -fuse link 2 in the main fuse box, a 60amp feed to the starter relay. A read you may find usefull with similar symptoms at the start of the thread... http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic29850.html Cheers, Kyle. |
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24th Dec 2016 6:20pm |
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| DAZ110 Member Since: 06 Dec 2007 Location: East Sussex Posts: 2035 
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Battery connection good?
Could disconnect battery, leave it 10 mins and reconnect? |
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24th Dec 2016 6:29pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8010  
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is it all all weather dependant?
ie worse when damp (or better) Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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24th Dec 2016 8:22pm |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Thanks for the replys...
Alien
I am familiar with this tread (I join in part way through) I used this to change the Starter Motor which i'm now fairly sure isn't the issue as I have the same result after fitting a new one. The Terminals on the Starter are connected clean and securely I should try to check the voltage at the Starter Motor / Solenoid (but need to know what I should expect) I also need to know what to expect if the immobiliser on this vehicle is not working correctly, If the immobiliser is still 'on' I assume there is no trigger voltage to the Starter Motor...
Fuse 2 (60 Amp) is good. ....................................................................................... DAZ110
Yes I have heard of this, also a version of this remove both + and - terminals from Battery and connect them together...a kind of factory reset...may be the same result...what exactly happens with a 10 minute battery disconnect, I assume something in the ECU...
....................................................................................... blackwolf
Oh I like those odds... 
I have Replaced the Starter Motor Relay (under Drivers Seat) It appears ok I have read about the slight twist of the terminals 'trick' to ensure a 'positive connection' I'll try this but my sense is the Relay is now right 'Switching' off the passive immobiliser... I assume this is part of the Lucas 10AS system...
So if you do this by the use of a diagnostics tool, it is just this function that is taken out of service and if my problem is here it is an effective (if short term) work around...
I assume also that if this works, it means the 10AS system is at fault, and that need a 'reboot' if possible or replacement unit. Central locking would remain, but the ignition system would be shall we say be simplified...
....................................................................................... jst
I'd say no...my problem is not weather, time, hot, cold, engine warm, engine cold dependant. My family had a joke at my expense today...(happy Christmas...  )
 Click image to enlarge SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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25th Dec 2016 11:00pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17353 
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Most passive immobiliser problems are caused by the AS10 failing to read the keyfob correctly at initial sync time. On my Defender, if I operate either front electric window while waiting for the heater plug light to go out, the engine won't start, guaranteed, repeatable every time. Disable PI and the window has no effect, engine starts. Conclusion - RFI or electrical noise is preventing the AS10 from validating the fob.
If you disable PI, the active immobiliser still works so locked with the fob the engine is still fully immobilised, it is only the fob/inductive coil business which is disabled. The relays should be really tight in their sockets. When you pull one out it should feel as though you're pulling the socket out of the truck rather than the relay from the socket. I am trying to remember if the immobiliser inhibits cranking or allows cranking but inhibits starting. Thinking back, and it's been several years since I had similar problems, I seem to recall that it allows cranking but not starting. If that is the case it suggests your issue may not be PI since you can't crank. There are additional crank inhibit functions in the ECU, for example to prevent you from cranking while the engine is running, so I guess other failure modes are possible. I presume you have checked all battery and earth connections? |
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25th Dec 2016 11:39pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20300
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In the past when I was getting used to mine at first if the immobiliser armed it would crank, start, then cut out.
Earthing may be an issue, worth checking. Loose battery terminals can also do it, but I'm quite sure you've probably already checked all of that anyway. ⭐️⭐️God Bless the USA 🇬🇧🇺🇸 ⭐️⭐️ |
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25th Dec 2016 11:52pm |
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| ickle Member Since: 22 Jul 2010 Location: South Vendee Posts: 1777  
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As bw and cs say mine does it occasionally.
Sometimes no starter engagement, sometimes a brief engagement then nothing But iirc the red immobiliser light stays on. If I sit in the car, arm the alarm, wait for the alarm light to steady flash, unarmed the alarm, then start, it seems to work every time. Has done it on the ferry - twice, but each time I've been parked with the steering (lhd) next to the central steel superstructure, if I park near the electronics box at a trade retail park, that can do it as well Good luck, just off to the ferry will let you know if it plays up! Keith |
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26th Dec 2016 9:16am |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20300
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It'll also arm if you unlock it, leave it unlocked open the doors or give it 5mmins.
Occasionally I have to press unlock before starting just to disarm it. ⭐️⭐️God Bless the USA 🇬🇧🇺🇸 ⭐️⭐️ |
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26th Dec 2016 11:29am |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Hello blackwolf (thanks so much...good description, this helps) I have limited knowledge here (I'm a Mechanical Engineer / Industrial Designer) so I get the basics but what you are describing makes sense to me, it also supports custom90steve and ickle's experience, this could all be the same kind of issue, maybe an electrical 'sensitivity' to the un-setting of the immobiliser, reading of fob (all planets aligning in the Land Rover world) and this Defender deciding all is as it should be...i'll start. I know there is a tendency to want to believe you have found the issue so I'm trying to remain objective here. I think because of what I have done (initial post) I should get this Defender plugged into a diagnostic tool and see what that reveals (if anything) and then try the Passive Immobiliser switch off and see. The only thing I will trust in, is a regular pattern of 'behavior'. If it does work then the next question is what do I do about this...throw the Lucas AS10 unit away and replace it, or swap to a after market system...
One route may be is to do nothing if the PI is off...rely on the other layers of Security...I may have in some way 'reduced' this Defender to a more simple product...maybe not a bad thing. This Defender was due to go to Scotland in few days time, whilst I have a full recovery service, and have used it for the first time recently to get this home, (oh the shame) I really don't fancy doing this somewhere remote. So to add to my issue, Christmas Day tried to start it twice...nothing, Boxing Day, it fired into life first time...
I have checked my Main Earth Points, off, cleaned and tightened, and I have replaced both Fob Battery's Again thanks for your help, (and others) I will get a solution here, i'm too invested in this Vehicle, but there is a point where I could possibly fall out of love with it, maybe they all test us to see if we are really up for LR ownership...
Click image to enlarge SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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26th Dec 2016 12:19pm |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Hello All
An update on my intermittently starting Puma... I think I have fixed it, but I dont know exactly why... (and I don't like it...)
I have progressively checked each element in the Starting Circuit and couldnt find either a damaged wire, poor connection, faulty component, or voltage drop along the way. So the next step was to try a see if there was any apparent issue with either the 10AS Lucas Alarm Immobiliser or the IPAC Instrument Binnacle, as both appear to play a role in starting a Puma. As I understand it, in the Puma Set Up there are several elements that all 'link' together to and Start the Engine. Ignition Switch, Induction Coil (around Ignition Switch), Key Fob, Starter Relay, 10AS Alarm Immobiliser, IPAC Instrument Binnacle, and ECU. When all is correct, the Starter Relay will energise and trigger the S Terminal on the Starter Motor and she will start. There is also a check on the Glow Plugs and Camshaft Position back to the ECU to factor in. So I continued by visually inspecting the condition of both the IPAC and the 10AS Connectors, All appear OK, All were connected as they should be, All were disconnected and reconnected. The IPAC unit and connectors looked as new, positive connection, taken apart inspected and reconnected. I did notice some water ingress around the 10AS, not much, and this is not unexpected on a Defender...
but the route needs locating and sealing. The 10AS appears to have no corrosion or damage at all, the Connectors or Unit itself. All back together and the end result is that I appear to have a Defender that is cured it has now started >50 times without hesitation, and all I have done is released look at and reconnect these Main Connectors. There was no theres the problem moment...It may return who knows, I don't like issues like this. Any thoughts...
Click image to enlarge IPAC Connected Click image to enlarge Close Up of IPAC Connector 'locked' Click image to enlarge Close Up of IPAC Connector 'unlocked' Click image to enlarge IPAC Disconnected Click image to enlarge IPAC Loom Connector Click image to enlarge IPAC Unit Connector Click image to enlarge 10AS Unit Click image to enlarge 10AS Unit Disconnected Click image to enlarge 10AS Unit 'Released' Click image to enlarge 10AS Unit Opened Currently travelling with 'extended' Toolkit in the back and my Breakdown 'Credit Card' tucked in my Sun Visor... SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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31st Jan 2017 11:29pm |
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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324 
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I work in Automation for film and theatre and have also done SMD circuit board manufacturing, bascially pulling apart and reinstalling electronic, electrical and mechanical systems. Your experience is often the case, fault fixed by wiggling a connector or three. Made comparatively easier in my case than auto systems as the connectors are designed to be accessible (well, even if you're in a harness 18m up it's still 'accessible').
Frustrating I bet for you not to know, but after a few weeks hopefully it'll be a footnote in your defender fixits
I had a internal courtesy light issue that confounded me last year - replacing door switches, 10AS removal, all sorts. I finally found the reason after months of it being almost fixed (fault happened once a week as opposed to 80% of the time) - anyway, it was a GND fault in the rear light housing of all places that I didn't consider likely. I take them for granted now, but back then it was such a boon having the lights working as they should. Not sure what I wanted say now - ha! - oh yeah >> I cant remember where I read it but some percentage of faults higher than 50% are either in connectors or in the user interface switches of a system (which are often connectors of sorts themselves) - likely you fixed it simply by touching it! Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants... |
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1st Feb 2017 2:01am |
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| dorsetsmith Member Since: 30 Oct 2011 Location: South West Posts: 4554 |
10AS can be fix
https://www.technozen-electronics.co.uk/la...-services/ |
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1st Feb 2017 8:45am |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2295
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Thanks agentmulder My Defender is writing its own 'X File' to sort this...
I really don't like where I am currently, may be OK may be not, and if it was a 'multi connector issue' with either the 10AS or IPAC then there is no reason I can see that this wont happen again, time will tell. dorsetsmith you are right and I would not hesitate to use this service, I called Paul Brown just to run through my symptoms and to see what options I may have with the 10AS. Paul really knows his subject and gave me 45minutes of assistance over the phone, which was really appreciated. I learnt a lot, and he is reasonably convinced that the 10AS is not at fault here, my central locking, alarm, and dash led work exactly as they should, the induction loop to fobs also appears to work as they should, the Starter Relay energises (you also hear it click) but when she fails, there is no action (turn over) at the Starter Motor at all. When my vehicle didn't start I also know that the fault does lie in the Starter Circuit delivering 12V to the S terminal of the Smarter Motor. The Permanent Main 12V Cable to the Starter Motor and Starter Motor Grounding all test OK Whilst the 10AS is a 'legacy product', I feel better about it now I know a bit more, the IPAC (Instrument Unit) is the 'bridge' to the ECU in the engine bay, sending a signal to the ECU that it can understand. The 10AS can't produce this signal on its own. Even if a upgrade Alarm is installed in a Puma / Defender with a 10AS, it is my understanding currently, that some functionality of the 10AS + IPAC delivered to ECU will remain to start these vehicles. I'm currently testing my vehicle 2-3 times a day, not stopping 'off site' and will see how I go... SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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1st Feb 2017 10:45am |
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