 | Home > Technical > Varta AGM G14 or Optima Yellow Top battery? |
 
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| bpman Member Since: 21 May 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 8069  
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Devon44 had a good deal on Odysseys a couple of months ago, PC1500 £200 delivered
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27th Nov 2012 7:29am |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436  
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Ok, well, cant keep out of it anymore
Some battery ranting Most terms are used mixed and regardless of real construction parameters. AGM, GEL, Deep Cycle, capacity, etc etc AGM - GEL –WET Status of the electrolyte AGM: inside a glassfibre matting, GEL: Gel status, not liquid WET: just the liquid electrolyte Wet has the disadvantage it will leak when upside down as the electrolyte is a pure liquid. The “plates” are nothing more than lead plates. In the mean time no leaking till 90° for short time solved by matrixes in the battery caps and the plates evolved to matrixed plates for bigger contact surface etc etc Gel solved the leaking issues, still venting is necessary but the gell is not passing through the sintered filter openings. (eg optima) The disadvantage of gel is that it does not transfer charges as easily,(the gelling part of the formulation is not conducting) hence the need for spiral designs, which just means there is a bigger contact surface between the plates and the electrolyte. This resulted also in a better CCA, as this is directly related.(bigger surface can conduct more energy at same time) But as less active electrolyte per cubic the capacity of the same external volume of the battery is lower. (simply put there is more lead vs electrolyte in it, less electrolyte = less capacity + less electrolyte as the gelling agents are also taking part of the place) AGM is the “new hot topic” but nothing more than an in-between. Instead of making gell you absorb the normal liquid in a matting. Less chance on leaking + clever venting matrix designs makes them quasi as safe as a gel type. Liquid instead of gel makes for better contact and charge exchange so capacity is up (a bit) and in case combined with a spiral design of the lead plates an even higher CCA than GEL. (exclude variants) (note that leaking is also related to gassing when charging, sealed batteries need a better controlled and at lower amp charging process as gasses cannot escape and would make the batteries explode under pressure build up. Also Optima has venting holes, AGM batteries also to allow for a faster charging spec (but still slower than an open battery)) Due to the bigger contact areas (and with the right charging systems) you can “deep cycle” the AGM and Gel better than a simple plate design. Sulfurisation of the plates is also less an issue as you have more plate surface available. (sulfur on plates= no more conducting, 5% of a classic plate or 5% of a 10 times bigger spiral surface makes the plate is quicker to not charging anymore while the spiral will. It is the charging process that kind of auto-cleans the plates but you need a min current for that which the plates are not able to conduct anymore in that case) But still, even on optima and others, this is a far cry from real traction batteries which are real deep cycle. Deep cycling means discharging till 40% of charge. ALL batteries can do this but not all can recover from it. A real traction battery can take up to 3000 deep cycles, a GEL/AGM/ WET deep cycle or leisure battery up to 300, a normal classic lead acid 0 if lucky you’ll survive a couple. So,if you want top level deep cycling, as you know you will run your batteries empty each and every time and you will only have the chance to charge them x time after that, go for sealed traction batteries. They will cost you 6 times more but you can expect 20 years from them in those conditions. (well, yes 10 years if you flatten them completely 300 times per year… and that is manufacturer guarantee) You’ll need to build up your banks with individual 6 or 12V cells till you reach your desired capacity. Now why all this explanation? There is no reason to prefer GEL or AGM IF you do not have a leaking/positioning issue. With a wet deep cycle battery you will get: - normal CCA - almost double capacity Ah (90 vs 55) - 1/3 rd of cost - identical deep cycle resistance So people into competition that must run under any angle I completely support in their choice of AGM/GEL. But for campers, overlanding or home warriors I do see a disadvantage in them and although I consider them though and good batteries a waste of money in those situations. A 50Ah Gel battery will not run your fridge and webasto for 12 hours, even if after recovery the battery has enough juice to restart the systems and run for another hour the build in voltage detectors of your fridge and webasto will switch off after about 6-8 hours. (not taking in consideration extreme temps/other users which makes things only worse) With a wet cell you will run them 10-12 hours as you simply have 45% more Ah available. It was a positive surprise to me to see that Landrover itself selected a deepcycle battery as oem and not a classic car starter battery. (see my previous post) Another point which I consider important for me. When putting 2 OEM (or varta’s) of equal type parallel as normal and AUX battery you don’t need a special charging system. When putting a wet and eg an optima in parallel you will never charge them correctly and this will lead to premature failure of the weakest of the two. So you’ll need to put in a split charging device. (that is not a 100£ fancy battery separator as the national-luna etc, it is a separate charging system as found in marine applications or eg the CTEK one) Or you’ll have to put in 2 optimas at once. Project cost immediately double and you’ll only have 2x50Ah instead of 2x90Ah. (both CCA enough for starting but the optimas will give in earlier, I guarantee, it's math) I like equipment and the more the better but not if it is unnecessary. To me all these batteries have their place and application. But I had too many friends asking me to help them out with constant empty optima’s blaming everything but not understanding that Ah was the only thing they needed in the first place and not the latest hype. To make it a bit constructive and to answer the original question 1. Don’t deep cycle your batteries, it is an option only for extreme/emergency situations with anything but real traction batteries anyway. 2. Calculate you capacity needed, without that you’ll run out of juice with any type of battery 3. Consider your existing equipment, doesn’t make sense to make things worse. 4. Tune your equipment, right battery for right charging system etc 5. Count your coins as everything is possible and each approach has its pricetag Respect above 5 and you’ll be a happy camper. Take a shortcut and you’ll put a weak link in the your system. Friendly 2cents only 
PS: I have hands on experience with all types mentioned above except AGM’s. (But also studied their specs) in all different types of applications (stationary and mobile) |
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28th Nov 2012 3:42pm |
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| lrmaniac Member Since: 04 Feb 2010 Location: Lisboa Posts: 762  
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Thanks! Great info tatra805!
Regards
Joao '10 Land Rover Defender 110 CC '08 BMW F800GS '64 SIIA Forward Control '69 SIIA 109 ZA CKD _____________________________________________ You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you. |
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28th Nov 2012 4:22pm |
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| chipmunk Member Since: 10 May 2012 Location: Kelso Posts: 264 
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Blimey!!!!! Have you just written that? Great info. Sorts a lot of questions out. You must get the website Xmas surprise for that one. Great, and thank you.
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28th Nov 2012 4:44pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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  thanks!
Going back to replacing the OEM battery As said it is a Varta LFD90 You find this exact battery at - Landrover: highest quality control testing from varta before leaving factory. Only the best goes to OEM. (OEM’s are biggest customers and warranties are on account of Varta) Higher price (didn’t dare to ask) - Varta Leisure deep cycle LFD90, bought one last week at 111 eur vat incl. Premium brand/ manufacturer, normal pricing Quality levels ok and 2 years of warranty - Bosch L5013, was quoted at 145 eur ex VAT Premium brand/reseller, produced by Varta, bit more expensive but I thought warranty was longer and related to series; L5/S5/T5: 5 years??? L4/S4/T4: 4 years etc but cannot find this back immediately and might be dependent on region. - “secondary” brands as banner, etc etc don’t have the same spec but come with same 2 year warranty and cheaper pricing. FYI  |
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28th Nov 2012 5:22pm |
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| simond Member Since: 15 Feb 2008 Location: Kent Posts: 26 
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My 2010 Puma still has the original Land Rover fitment, which as said above is a Varta OEM.
I nearly ordered an LFD90 based on this thread; however I was sceptical over the use of a leisure battery for a frequent starting application. So I went on Varta's UK website and started typing in numbers off my original battery. The original Land Rover battery carries the reference YGD500160 and this is Varta part number 595 402 080. The Varta site took me to part numbers 595 402 080 (Blue Dynamic, which is the same specs as the original) and a Silver Dynamic option which is listed as 600 402 083, as a premium fitment. http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/prod...95-402-080 For a few £s more I chose the 083 version. The LFD90 is a different part number and is, according to the manufacturer, designed for boats and motorhomes. http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/prod...0-090-080/ So to sum up, it could be that later batteries on UK spec Defenders built post 2010 were different - or perhaps the earlier post needs treating with caution. [/url] Simon D |
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2nd Oct 2016 11:41am |
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| NinetyTD4 Member Since: 22 Apr 2011 Location: North Posts: 397  
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If you change battery technology, make absolutely sure it fits to the charger! Many AGM and similar require a different charging characteristics. They also may have different temperature behavior. So, if you change, check and if applicable, modify the generator electrics. If you don't, you have two choices, the battery is either never fully charged, or will have a reduced lifetime. Simple exchange with no modification usually works only for classic wet batteries (or for modified AGM/Gel/... batteries, but then you loose most of its benefit).
I would not change to AGM/Gel or other, as after required modification I will have a problem if the battery breaks in the middle of nowhere and I have to find an exact matching AGM-Version-something piece ... Never forget: cars have owner, Landrover have field service personnel. |
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5th Oct 2016 2:40pm |
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| Welkman Member Since: 02 Nov 2014 Location: Essex colchester Posts: 326
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So if you wanted to run a fridge and a few camping lights would you just set up a system similar to a boat where you would have two battery's as a main and lesiure, one being 'deep' and both 110 amp hours ? I have an enormous CAT battery on my 110 as it came from a crane company ! Also could someone reccomend the cheapest option for setting up a split charge system ? Some of the prices I have seen seem ludicrous.
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28th Oct 2016 4:30pm |
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| VeeTee Member Since: 06 Mar 2011 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1512 
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I use a Cyrix VSR for my dual battery setup, described here. Cheers, Vincent
1959 Polynorm 1/4 Ton Trailer, Olive Drab Green (sold) 1970 M416 Military Trailer (Camping Trailer Conversion), Epsom Green (sold) 1975 Series III 88 V6, Light Green (sadly sold) 1996 Defender 110 CSW 300 Tdi, Epsom Green (sold) 2000 Freelander 1 TD4 3-drs, Silver (sold) 2006 Freelander 1 TD4 5-drs Facelift Automatic, Tonga Green (sold) MySite |
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28th Oct 2016 6:10pm |
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| Birdy Member Since: 07 Oct 2011 Location: Côte d'Azur Posts: 865  
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“I would not change to AGM/Gel or other” Nor me…
Necessary on a boat where (a) they might be located below decks or in an engine room with no ventilation and (b) they're liable to get tilted more than in a vehicle (unless you intend to roll it), but looked after and not allowed to discharge I've never had to replace an OEM battery on a Land Rover and the Odyssey which came with the Mog is now ten years old. To give you an idea of the cost of good maritime ones, the trade price for the 90Ah AGM starter battery fitted to my boat is £231.27, the GEL batteries (slow discharge “leisure” batteries) come in at £330.42 for the 85Ah ones which I have, and a whopping £455.16 for 120Ah. Plus VAT of course… Peter |
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28th Oct 2016 8:01pm |
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| nickhodgson Member Since: 08 Dec 2009 Location: Zambia Posts: 174 
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I use Varta G8 in most of my defenders. I use them in the winch challenge vehicle and in the camping car. In the camping car I use two in parallel and have a simple battery connector (National Luna) to connect them to the car battery when the engine is running.
I chose these batteries as they had the highest CCA and a very good 95ah and they fit. I am in Zambia and we have a good supply of cheap batteries from South Africa where the equivalent physical "size" battery will have less that half the CCA. Does this put more strain on the electrics (starter and winch motor) and when in use than a battery with a higher CCA? The Varta G8 have been very good in service, especially on the winching. Friends have 200ah "AGM' or "Deep Cycle" batteries that are destroyed in one event where I am still on the same old G8. There seems to be a lot of confusion about batteries and everyone seems to know whats best!! I do periodically give all batteries a full charge with a 25amp CTEK Charger. Tatra are you saying that the LFD90 supplied to LR is better quality than the one you buy direct from Varta? I have heard the same story about tyres supplied to Manufacturers as well. Another question would be: do some of the batteries people like to use need to be charged at higher than normal voltages? and so are not well suited to being in a car? 1995 300tdi Defender 90 P/UP 2011 Puma Defender 130 D/C 2000 300tdi Defender 110 P/UP 2015 Discovery 4 SDV6 HSE |
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3rd Nov 2016 1:34pm |
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971 
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Cyrix for me too, I spent ages researching and went with the 230A one. Would buy again. |
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3rd Nov 2016 6:05pm |
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| ARC99 Member Since: 19 Feb 2013 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1831 
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Sorry to drag this back.
I was offered a Ctek Battery Sense for a very low price and fitted a couple of days ago. Shock horror bit showed battery at 30% charge, now I haven't bothered to check the state since I bought the 110 four years ago or recharged it. So in planning for the possibility of having to replace it I thought that I would price up a genuine replacement . The original battery is YGD500160 which has been superseded to LR030212 priced at £252.71. Don't make old people mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to  us off.
Richard |
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25th Feb 2017 3:03pm |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816 
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This is one of those touchy question/topics. There are as many strong opinions as there are battery types.
Original Defender Puma battery is a Varta deep cycle battery. You can go on the Varta UK website, enter your vehicle specifics and see what today you get as their recommendation. I just did it for my truck and got as result a Varta Silver Dynamic AGM 595 901 085 (should be identical result for yours). My own truck is still on its original, now 8,5 years old Varta battery. No signs of weakness at all yet. But I regularly connect it to the Ctek, so never discharge it deeply, and I do not have things like a electricity eating winch, etc. When the time will come to replace this in the next few years I will go for the Varta recommendation again. In this thread topic I especially like the comments by tatra805. Pretty common sense I'd say. Now £252.00 for this battery seems expensive I think, probably a main dealer price/markup? Once you know which battery you want, you might look at other stores where you could get the same. Eric https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/pro...95-901-085 You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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25th Feb 2017 4:21pm |
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